Wayne Bush -- Interview with a Near Death Experiencer Who Met A Demiurge

Background (begins at 4m 56s)
His 'Death' (begins at 36m 36s)
Darkness (begins at 45m 14s)
The Light (begins at 55m 34s)
Returning to Earth (begins at 93m 55s)
The Demiurge (begins at 106m 0s)
Millennia of Peace (begins at 154m 50s)
End (begins at 173m 57s)

[NOTE: First off, I'd like to apologize for being such a poor interviewer. It was the first and only interview I've ever conducted. I am a computer programmer and obviously not a polished speaker or experienced interviewer so please forgive me. I did the best I could do under the circumstances which was not very good, unfortunately.]

Wayne: Hi, everyone. Welcome to my first ever interview for the TrickedByTheLight.com web site. I'm Wayne Bush and I started the web site over 10 years ago. It was a result of becoming dissatisfied with the religious and philosophical ideas given for why we're here. I had an epiphany that the predominant religious figure or savior in each major religion were Princes. In Hinduism, Prince Krishna. In Buddhism, Prince Buddha. In Judaism, you had Moses, the Prince of Egypt. And Christianity Jesus was in the line of King David and was mocked as King of the Jews. Burkes-Peerage, the genealogical guide for royalty says that the British royal family was descended from Muhammad. So I came to the conclusion the royal families and ruling elite created religions to control mankind by promising them a reward in Heaven or a better life next time around if we do what we're told and threaten us with eternal hellfire or a miserable life next time around if we misbehave. They tell us to turn the other cheek and the meek will inherit the Earth. This way we would not revolt so they get to keep all the power and gold. And, of course, they profit handsomely off these Holy Wars -- wars in the name of Jesus or Allah.

So the premise of the web site is that Life is a game, most likely a holographic computer simulation of a Drama like a movie or play where the plot that we are prisoners or slaves and aliens are feeding off our energy and siphon our energy. They achieve this by luring our souls to the moon which is a processing and distribution center. Tricked By the Light explores the possibility that we are tricked into going to the Light at death.

Today I'm going to be interviewing a "Near Death Experiencer Who Experienced A Demiurge". He asked to be called by that term because he has received several death threats over some of the things he has tried to talk about before. It seems near death experiencers don't like this subject and some who are deeply entrenched in religious doctrine aren't tolerant of the message either. But what he has to say is extremely important and must be heard. I trust those who are ready to consider deep topics like this will find the interview.

I guess first we should define the term 'Demiurge'. It's a Gnostic concept. The Gnostics were a sect of Christians who went underground. They viewed the physical as 'bad' or 'evil' and claimed to know things which is what the term 'Gnosis' means. I became interested in them thinking if mainstream Christianity was mostly propaganda, then perhaps the Gnostics had something interesting to say. I first heard the term 'archons' when researcher John Lash appeared on Art Bell's Coast to Coast radio show and talked about a group of entities mentioned in the Nag Hammadi texts that were mind parasites. The Gnostics used the term 'Demiurge' to describe the Creator of 'evil' or the God of this world. And my Dictionary of Ancient Deities defines the Demiurge as Jehovah, who of course is the Old Testament Hebrew god, a god known for his jealousy, the whole 'sinners in the hands of an angry God' motif.

This marks the first interview I've ever conducted. What my guest has to say is astounding. It is the most extensive near death experience (NDE) I have ever heard and I have not heard any other near death experiencer talk about THESE things before. So I wanted to give a little background or the reason for how the interview and how it came about. So I have this comments section on my web site on most the main pages. And I've got a page on the Light and somebody commented that they knew somebody who had had a near death experience and when they mentioned to them that the Light is a trick, they just laughed. And so he said it would be interesting to hear what some near death experiencers had to say. So I thought 'well, that's a very valid point' and I even think that's probably my biggest contention point is near death experiencers who most of them have gone to the Light and had wonderful things to say about it. So I thought I would go to one of the nearby IANDS groups meetings, which is the International Association for Near Death Studies, where people who have had near death experiences come to share their experiences. It's kind of like a support group. so I went and they went around the room and everybody shared their experiences. And one in particular mentioned the word psy-ops', He just touched on it for like one sentence. he said there was a lot of psy-ops gong on on our planet, or something like that. I thought to myself, here's somebody who could probably understand where I'm coming from -- conspiracy theories and that kind of stuff. So I talked to him after the meeting and I mentioned... right off the bat the first thing I mentioned was if he had ever heard of anybody talking about the Demiurge or Archons and he said that he had met the Demiurge [NOTE: he explained to me that he was near or around the moon and was alien]. And so I told him about my web site and I asked him if he would be willing to come on and do an interview, and he graciously accepted so he is here. so I guess welcome to my first pod cast show and congratulations on being my first guest ... Is there anything you want to tell us about yourself or do you just want to start off by explaining how the near death experience happened?

Guest: Well, first of all, thanks for inviting me to talk about this topic. To me it's the LEAST well-received part of my near death experience. My near death experience is VERY extensive. I remember it as if it just now happened. Now to say meeting what you defined as the Demiurge... you know, I don't know if I would define that being as evil, first of all. Now that's kind of a subjective term and I want to be very clear that the words that we use are not always going to be exactly the same as the way somebody else said it It's not gong to be the way that I perceived it. [Wayne: Right. ] And so if we can be clear about that. I mean, you mentioned Archons and while I have some understanding of that, I don't know them as Archons. I do have a sense that there are beings looking over my shoulder and some people have called those Angels. Others have called them their Higher Self. And yet I don't think of them as totally being negative although I DO perceive them as not having a sensitivity to my pain,my suffering. It seems to me that they're there -- whatever it is that's out there. They ARE watching me VERY closely. They understand my thoughts. They understand my emotions. They understand my intentions, but they don't feel my suffering, do you understand what I'm saying?

Wayne: So maybe if you started explaining about the near death experience because I'm sure that will be part of your experience as you explain it, right? .

Guest: Well, you know to begin with I just want you to that I'm a chess player. I'm not the best chess player in the whole world. However, I play a lot of chess and before I Was in the military I played simulators. We used little metal figures... little metal tanks... soldiers. And I simulated wars for almost all of my young life from the time that I was pre-teen all the way through to the time I died. So my perspective on how I see things may be different than say someone who had a lifestyle that wasn't as, I don't know, almost psychotic like I had. My life was just consumed with killing -- killing, capturing...uh...

Wayne: So you were in the military?

Guest: Yes, I WAS in the military but I want to go back before then, okay. [Wayne: Yes. ] When I was child -- young child -- I used to be afraid of the dark because there was something under my bed. And a lot of people when they're children they have these reflections, you know, there's something under my bed. There's something there. I really think that there IS something there, if it's just an energy, or whatever it is. There's SOMETHING that we don't like that's down there. And I would sleep with the lights off and then my mother would turn the lights off. And then there would be a little bitty light crack underneath the door. And I would suck the sheets around my head -- you know, just leave a little piece so I could breathe and so I could look out from the sheets at the light underneath the door. Now am I the only person that's ever experienced that? I think that there's a lot of children that have probably experienced something like that because I KNEW that there was something under my bed. And most adults will say well there's really nothing underneath your bed, there's not. And perhaps there's not a physical something there, but I think the fear of the unknown -- whatever that is. It's something that creates inside of us a need to respond in some way and so I would respond by looking at the light. And then when I WOULD fall asleep, I would literally leave my body. I would fly around my neighborhood. I would see my lost frisbee that I had lost. The next day I could go and retrieve that frisbee. And I could see the transformers on electrical poles. I mean, I could see the numbers on the sides of them. It wasn't like I was going through some dreamscape because it wasn't a dreamscape. It was my real neighborhood and I would circle around my neighborhood and get wider and wider. And the force of my Will would keep me aloft. And when my Will would drop, I would start descending. And that freedom of flying around in the dark above my neighborhood -- it was exhilarating -- and I knew that I was safe when I was flying. I KNEW it.

Wayne: Do you think this helped prepare you for the extensiveness of the near death experience?

Guest: You know what, I think that there are people who are more likely to have near death experiences and I think those who have had flying dreams may be.... you know, where they don't have a problem leaving their body are more likely to have them.

Wayne: Fear of the unknown... fear can shut down a lot of paranormal experiences.

Guest: Yeah, so if I could start there and say I had flying dreams, lots of them, and that was my escape. And I loved flying and so what happened inside of my lifetime is that I was a really small person. I was very tiny. I was the second smallest person in the 8th grade. I mean, if you can imagine. [Wayne: I was too. ] You know, and I built these defenses inside of my mind -- these defenses being that I'm going to be powerful and I'm gong to be able to defeat my enemies and so I'm going to be more clever than the other person. You know, I'm going to outrun them. I'm going to outfight them in some way by being smarter than them so it was always this concept inside of me that I needed to defeat my enemies and so I kept on creating enemies. And I would read books about the Germans. I read every book you could imagine about the Germans and I loved flying so I read every book about the Aces, mostly German Aces, and I read about the American Aces. I read about every book you could imagine on aviation inside of my little school. And then I branched out to the Navy, the Army... different types of things. Each step was like setting me up to create a sense of empowerment inside of me... this little person... kind of the Napolean complex or the Hitler complex, the Little Man complex, where you think I need to be very very powerful to assert my enemies. And who was the real enemy was the bully on the playground. I would get in fights frequently with very tall underclassmen because they wanted to prove to them that they could beat up an upperclassman. And so I would have to constantly be in this fight or flight type of situation. And the fantasy that came into MY mind -- and I want you to know first of all it comes from a religious perspective -- was to destroy Communism. Okay, I was brought up religious where we would salute the flag in church, where we would pledge allegiance to the flag and to our country. We would salute the soldiers that were in the church and the Pastor said something that was really significant. It's a scripture from the Old Testament. He says today if we fought wars like God wants us to, then we would do what God says. And here's what God says: to destroy our enemies, to kill their women, their children, their cattle, burn their crops, and bash their babies' brains against the rocks. Now that might not be word for word, but it's there.

Wayne: I think that's in a lot of... I've read some of the Koran and, you know, the 'infidels'... it's pretty prominent in a lot of the religions even Hinduism in the Mahabharata. Anyway where Arjuna is encouraged... the whole thing's about why he's basically justifying the war... and it's okay to fight... I guess it's pretty prevalent.

Guest: And so I had this concept that God hated. And God hated the enemies of God, and who was that? And if you went to MY church the enemies of God were homosexuals. They were Muslims. They were Communists. They were Atheists, you know, or even Liberals. I mean, you could say Liberals in general supported those other groups and so they were evil in the sight of God. And homeless people as a matter of fact, people who wouldn't work.

Wayne: So essentially you ?joined the Military out of this idea that it was a noble cause wanted to defend the country against some evil that... at least from your perspective at that time, you think??

Guest: I considered those groups that I just mentioned to be evil in the sight of God, that God hated them. I didn't personally hate them, okay. It wasn't like I personally hated them. I didn't sit there and plot to kill those groups. However, I got this wild notion that I could end world Communism and how was I gong to do that? I was going to fly a glider with a nuclear bomb attached into the Kremlin under the cover of being launched off the back of an aircraft and I was going to glide into the Kremlin and I was going to blow up the Kremlin. And that was going to end Communism.

Wayne: you would've been ???? orders from a General or Superior... this kind of idea that you had... were you a rogue element at that point?

Guest: I was manifesting it. At 14 years old I was flying airplanes. I would throw 3 paper routes a day. I lived 20 miles away from where George Bush, Jr. grew up.

Wayne: By the way, I want to go on record saying I'm NOT related to George Bush. My family, our last name was Bucci, B-U-C-C-I and they changed it to Bush. I'm no relation okay, go on.

Guest: So, I mean, I was literally brought up in the same 'us vs. them' mentality... very competitive out in West Texas... We were very competitive in sports, just with everything. Everything was a competition between me and you, and me being good and you being bad. And the town next to me was the evil town and we were the good town, and I'm sure they felt the same exact way about us. It's the way that our culture is set up in that we are extremely competitive. We compete with each other, but I was brought up thinking that I needed to be on the good team. What's the good team? Team America, right? You know, apple pie, John Wayne... paratroopers with John Wayne out there with the Green Berets. I remember singing that song: "Fighting soldiers from the sky... Fearless men who jump and die... men who mean just what they say... The brave men of the Green Beret." And so in THIS type of environment's what I grew up in, watching Viet Nam on television. I understood what war was. I understood that we were the good guys. They were the bad guys. So I became a pilot when I was 14 years old and that's the youngest you can possibly do it. I would pay for my flying lessons by throwing 3 newspaper routes a day -- rode my motorcycle -- and then when I was 15 I flew by myself. I flew solo and, in fact, my instructor would bring the adults out to watch this kid land because I would grab into the wind and right at the very last second drop in for a perfect three-point landing, you know, touch down -- pooom-- I was just really good because I rode motorcycles and bicycles and skateboards and everything up to that point was something I was very good at. And so I became a perfect tool to be used for what I was planning. Now what I would plan was going into the Kremlin, but how it manifested was; it was a progression. First I started off with flying airplanes across my room and then it moved up to drawing little picture graphs on papers where you flip the pages and I would fly these missions. And then I got my pilot's license and then I joined the Military and I couldn't get into the regular flight school in the Military because I so anxious to get into flying that I found out you go through the Army and get into a flight school, and actually get into Military operations where you are, you know, covert. And so I'm manifesting what my beliefs are. They are manifesting right from... I go into the Military... I was in Military Intelligence. We were preparing to go to war with Iran -- very similar to what we are right this very minute -- and that was World War III. I know a lot of people think that going to war with Iran is gong to be like Iraq. They have no idea how big a difference the difference is going to be. I mean, we're talking about the end of probably civilization and yet that's what we were planning. And this is where I am. I was very good at my job. I was the very best at identifying Military equipment in my occupation. I'm still doing the War gaming. But during this time there was a setback and I spent about six months just destroying documents for the Military and during that time I had what I would call a precursor to my near death experience. I was in this isolated room and I felt my soul leave my body. And I zoomed to outer space.

Wayne: So you had an out of body experience?

Guest: Yeah, you know where I would describe the other ones as being flying dreams, but they weren't really flying... flying around my neighborhood. This was very different. I zoomed out to outside the atmosphere. I turned around and looked down and I saw the Earth -- big blue marble Earth.,. you know right above it and then I just zoomed back in. So this is several months before my near death experience, but it was again I felt all these things are... you know, this wasn't under any kind of stress. This was just something that happened.

Wayne: You definitely saw the Earth as a sphere, right? I know some people out there have the idea that the Earth is flat. Even I have these questions about it maybe being a holograph ??? You didn't see any type of holographic... you saw like a sphere?

Guest: With water and land and mountains and rivers. It was just... Earth. I could see the Great Lakes. I could see the Gulf and I could see the California Baja peninsula. That's the perspective I saw it from was... I saw it the way I saw it... it was just Earth... round. ? Okay, what's interesting is that why did I do it? Why was that something that I did? Now let's advance, fast-forward just a little bit. We are... the soviet Union had collapsed. There was no Soviet Union. We didn't have a mission, the Military. We were literally picking up cigarette butts. That's what we were doing before we created this new mission. Now we had this meeting and we had to sign papers that said we wouldn't talk about it for 20 years and in this meeting we had there were two gentlemen there. Now to call them gentlemen probably is not true. They were from a Think Tank and they were giving us a new mission. And the new mission was to completely destroy the will to fight amongst the Muslim people. Now this is before we had Iraq. This is before we had all the terrorists attacks. There were some minor things that had happened up to that point. However, this was the beginning of that. At this point over in Iran our Embassy was taken siege by some Muslim terrorists. And it's interesting how non-agressive they were. They just seemed to be baiting Ronald Reagan into getting into office. It seemed they didn't really want to kill anybody and we actually ended up sending some Marines in there that DID die just from their aircraft failure. But it was just a terrible time for what was to come and we had no idea that this little skirmish that we had with Iran was going to basically send at this point millions of soldiers from America all over the world into combat against Muslim people in Iraq, Afghanistan and other countries over there -- and they're all over, they're everywhere. But the thing that he said is we are going to destabilize every single Muslim nation and -- these two guys did from the Think Tank -- and that we are going to create... we are going to do lesser evil to prevent a greater evil. Now what was that lesser evil? It was to destabilize their countries by pitting them one against another. In other words, your enemy is.. if your enemy is my enemy then you're my friend.

Wayne: So basically divide and conquer.

Guest: Right, and don't get me wrong, they're doing the same thing to us, okay. So I'm not giving the Russians and the Chinese a bye on this, not even the Iranians, okay? I'm not giving ANYONE a bye. But I'm saying that WE'RE doing that and whenever you say that America is doing that... if you go back 30 years ago most Americans thought we were the Good Guys. I don't think that's the case anymore. I don't believe that most Americans believe that. I think most Americans believe that we are doing what we're doing to protect our oil interests and our Allies. And that's exactly what they told us. We're going to be protecting the Corporate interests of the United States and we're going to be protecting OUR Allies in the Middle East and creating this new mission but that we were not going to be losing another war. And the way that we were going to do that was by changing the way reporters reported, that we were no longer going to just send in reporters that can go willy-nilly and report whatever they want to. And so they basically bought the Media. And then, this is really interesting. They said we're going to change the way the universities teach and they created money. They financed grants. They financed professors. They financed research for individuals who would not say... you know, they called it Objective. They called it 'objective reporting'. They would never ever say that what we were doing is just wrong. It's just wrong for you to murder another country's President and then invade them because that was against the rules. So what they would do was change the language of how things were said and always have a bias towards the United States. And there's nothing wrong with that if you're doing Good. However, at some point I realized that nobody's doing good.

Wayne: The term 'freedom fighter' or 'terrorist' depends upon which side of the equation you're on I guess... from your perspective.

Guest: Right. Viet Nam had a body count in Iraq and it was 'collateral damage'. We changed the way we talked about how we kill people. And we don't report the amount of people killed, for instance. If the wheels are off the ground in Iraq and they're headed to Germany they're not going to be counted as killed in combat. They're going to be considered dying in Active Duty. I mean, you gotta look at things.. it's about hearts and minds . and to win the hearts and minds they don't have to be Good Guys, they just have to create the possibility that we're doing something that we had to: a lesser evil to prevent a greater evil. And so then you have the television shows.. the "programming"... television shows, marketing children's toys, video games that were all created to create an illusion that it's necessary to respond to evil with evil... with greater evil... not just with return an eye for an eye, but to return an eye with a devastating, gigantic hammer that destroys not just you, but your neighbors and your family and the random person that happened to be walking by. And that that's okay. And I believed it was okay at the time. However, I had something that I call cognitive dissonance. whenever they said that we're going to do a lesser evil to prevent a greater evil I said in my mind "That makes us evil". It only lasted for one second -- that moment, that cognitive dissonance, that changing 'Wow, that means that we're evil'. And once you agree to do [Wayne: But it's a 'lesser' evil ] But evil is evil [Wayne: Right, right. ] And once you agree to be evil, it's really incredible what you're willing to do. Once you agree that you're evil and you have to go from that perspective.

Wayne: You bought into the Program at that point.

Guest; Yeah, I mean, I bought little targets with Khomeini and them all the other bad guys okay. And we would say things like "Nuke them 'til they glow", "Turn Iran into a sea of glass" and we sang these horrible, awful songs: "We're gonna rape, kill, pillage, burn... we're gonna rape, kill, pillage burn. And eat babies." And then we sang all these songs we triumphed over being evil. I mean, not triumphed over it. We became THAT.

Wayne: I imagine some of the raping and stuff like that probably did go on... hopefully, there weren't any killing any babies.

Guest: Well, not at that time. What happened in THAT time was... I don't know, I can tell that you some big, gigantic forces stopped us from going into Iran. and I want to say that something happened. We did not go. There were sane minds at that time. And Part of it is because that's the end of the Game. Once you say we're going into Iran, you're saying this is World War III. It's GAME OVER, everybody has to go play a different game somewhere else. And so I think that whatever forces that were out there that were manifesting this great, gigantic battle that we were going to begin and was going to end with China and Russia and the United States all at each others' throats was heading head long... We were heading headlong into that. I mean, nobody really knows how close we came.

Wayne: And had you flown your plane into the Kremlin or something that would have definitely triggered something like World War III, right? So they had to keep that from maybe happening... you think that the Greater Power kind of intervened?

Guest: You know, I don't think I was gonna fly that glider into that Kremlin. I think I was definitely caught up in destroying Communism. I was definitely caught up in destroying Liberal ideas. We would sit there and talk about when Bill Clinton was out of office that it was going to be FREE GAME on the Liberals and that we're going to literally round them up. It was going to be 'look the other way' because the Liberals are now dead. And that is what we were really talking about in the Military, and I'm not talking about OFFICIALLY. It was unofficial but that was our "muwahahahaha we're gonna get it".

Wayne: Now do you still have that partisan perspective, or now do you think both sides are two sides of the same coin and they are trying to be played off against each other?

Guest: Absolutely, and once you understand that... that every single bit of that tension is a big chess game, then you get the idea that they literally every time they pit one human being against another human being through their intellectual beliefs, through their political beliefs, through their religious belief, or just what town you live in, or whatever culture.. I mean, I believed the Catholics were evil. I believed that people that weren't my exact religion were evil. Once you get THERE though -- once you to that place of absolutism -- you can do a lot of things. And I believed that I was amongst a lot of individuals who believed like I did. We were heading headlong into World War III in Iran. WE were literally moving that way and we were going there. And I was joining them. I was all for it. I mean, I thought "We're going to eliminate Iran, we're going to eliminate Russia... we're going to nuke China into oblivion. I mean, I BELIEVED that, but I didn't believe it because it was a realistic viewpoint. But I believed it because God was on our side.

Wayne: That is one of my favorite songs -- by Bob Dylan. "With God On Our Side".

Guest: Sure. It didn't matter. Political leaders at that time who were basically saying the same thing. I mean, that God was on our side and we were going to go against the Evil Empire. That was later on, but basically the same concepts.

And I was getting ready... I was going to a mission... I was going on a mission... to go to a planning for going to war with Iran. I was in my little car, my little MGB, and I got distracted because I was supposed to meet this girl and we were going to have a kiss. That was it, just a promise of a kiss and so I never made it there because I was railroaded literally off of the main road. I was going through a road in a storm -- massive storm in my little car -- and I had to get to the base.

Wayne: Somebody ran you off the road, or...?

Guest: Well, I don't know about some "body" but some "thing", something, some thing... I was going down the road and the literal sign that was saying go to Fort Wayne was flapping in the wind and the rain was coming down so harshly that, I mean, I couldn't see the sign.

Wayne: That kind of reminds me of the movie The Truman Show when the storm starts coming in.

Guest: So literally I didn't know which road to choose and so I went to the right, the far right if that makes any sense, and I was going down this road called "Double S Road" and a flash flood comes through and washes my vehicle off the road and I died in a field outside of Toledo, Ohio. <> <>

Wayne: You want to take a moment and compose yourself? I know this must be awful hard for you to relive all these experiences... it's gotta be very painful, but... I can't imagine...I can't tell you how appreciative I am for you to share this with everyone and hopefully you can make a difference in some peoples' lives and help them understand this crazy world we're living in a little better.

Guest: Well, I died. My body went through glass, through the windshield, through the side window. To this day I have glass still coming out of my body from thirty years ago and, uh...

Wayne: You left your body. Did you see your body from above? OR did you see a tunnel of light or did you just go straight to the Light? I mean, how... could you step us through that?

Guest: Well, I was going through the windshield and I had a life review. I saw my whole life from the very beginning of my.

Wayne: So your life review happened before you even went to the Light or through the tunnel?

Guest: Yeah.

Wayne: You saw your life pass before your eyes?

Guest: Yeah. So I saw every beautiful, wonderful, awesome, loving, kind, joyful moment of my entire life flash before my eyes. It was there. It was just like fast-fowarded past like it wasn't important.

Wayne: The positive, good things stood out?

Guest: They were the only important things. It was as if I was getting a... a little bit later you'll see it's like my defense -- my defense documents, you know -- I was saying, hey, 'what did YOU do... what did YOU do for the Earth...what did YOU do for mankind... what did YOU do for God?

Wayne: Okay, so, but, when you died in the car did you have an out-of-body where you could look back and see your body, see a tunnel form or anything like that?

Guest: I was outside my body. I looked as if from an omniscient point of view... I would be maybe 10 feet away and I could move in a little bit closer or maybe a little bit further back to see things and I would see important moments in my life. You know, certain moments were just fast-forwarded past.

Wayne: There weren't any other beings around you at this point?

Guest: Sure there were. I mean, I knew they were there but, I mean, I was in the drivers' seat here, you know, and, I mean, like things that weren't important: eating, pooping.. you know, sex was not important, okay... just bodily functions stuff, working just to pay for your bills, things like that... I mean, now there were moments of work where I was with somebody where I interacted with them but mostly it was beautiful scenery that I had seen when my grandparents were with me -- going fishing with them -- just these moments of sharing with just other people talking gently with others. It was like... it wasn't these big old huge things that you would think. It was beautiful moments that you have in your life... meetings you have with others that should have given you a hint, you know, but they didn't.

I don't know why I was only shown what was important and not delve on the negative. Maybe that's gonna happen when I go back next time, I don't know.

Wayne: It wasn't things important like personal accomplishments, like you made the winning shot in a basketball game or something? It was more like when you helped somebody out or those kinds of things?

Guest: Or, you know, considering you're coming from a selfish person who just basically lived for himself... maybe very close to being a psychopath or a sociopath or a narcissist, that's somebody who literally lives just to kill people, that was my...

Wayne: Are you describing yourself in that way?

Guest: Well, at that point. I mean, you look back on my life I ...

Wayne: Yeah, but you got into it because of a noble cause. You thought it was God's Will and you really wanted to help do the right thing, right? It doesn't sound too psychopathic.. it was slowly a thing you became immersed into?

Guest: If it was so wonderful, why wasn't it in the good things that happened in my life? Every single moment of me plotting to scheme and kill people was not there, not one second of it. I mean, it was like that wasn't important. In fact, it was meaningless. It was garbage, just like the going to the potty. That's how worthless it was. And what WAS important was kindness, compassion, mercy, love, joy. What WASN'T important was me planning and plotting and scheming to kill for God and all my thoughts about how evil the Catholics were and how evil the Muslims were and how evil the Communists were and how evil... not one thought of that was there in the things that I took with me to the Light.

Wayne: That's interesting.

Guest: So I take this little package of things <> that I had done that were positive: love, kindness, mercy, compassion. Love -- I don't mean love like love you have with your favorite gal or girl, but I'm talking about... and that was there too, but it was not sensual. It's like if you have a kind moment with your girlfriend, then that's fine -- it's gonna be there -- but it's not what most of it --

Wayne: More of an altruistic kind of love, sacrificial type of stuff?

Guest: No, ALL love makes it. It's just that SOME 'love' isn't really love. You know what I mean? Some love is just... it's just a drive, like a sex drive or something like that. But love between people anywhere, any kind of anything between you and your dog, or even you and guitar, or you and your 'whatever'... it's there. All kinds of love is there. People think there's this agape love and that's the only kind of love that makes it. No, it's ALL love... ALL of it. And if it's attached to kindness, mercy, compassion -- love is love, okay.

Wayne: There wasn't any Light at this point?

Guest: No, no, at that point I went into the Darkness and it was dark.

Wayne: Like outer space or what kind of darkness?

Guest: I felt like there was a surface and I was standing on it even though I couldn't see a surface. I felt like I was literally in the darkest place you could possibly imagine.

Wayne: You just all of a sudden found yourself... you didn't see it and say 'I'm gong to go there' and all of a sudden you were in the Darkness?

Guest: I had my life review and then I went back in my body and I got banged around as my car's rolling around in the field and then I got thrown into this place so it was almost like I went out of my body, came back in -- crunch, crunch, crunch, crunch, blood, guts, you know, pain, agony...

Wayne: So then what happened in the Darkness?

Guest: I looked around, you know I had a sense of looking around and I knew I didn't want to be there. I knew that...

Wayne: Was it a scariness or did you feel at peace?

Guest: Nah, nah, nah... there was no love there. Okay, Love is something that once you know what it really is, you can't fake it and there's no faking it. I mean, I just had my life review. I know what Love was because I just saw it, you know what I mean? I know what Love is. I just saw my little 10 minutes of Love that I had in my 21 years of life, you know what I mean? It wasn't much, you know what I mean? So here I am. I've just seen it, just right before my eyes -- THIS is it. THIS is what Love is and now I'm in the Darkness and there's none here -- no Love here, okay. So I'm looking around there's no Love to be found and there's nothing. I mean, people get homesick. What are they homesick for? For those moments.. those little bitty blips of moments we have with our loved ones. Those moments that we had with our special friend... or that time we had with our dog, you know?

Wayne: So that wasn't any place you wanted to stay for any extended period of time, the Darkness

Guest: Well, I looked up. It was like that time whenever I was hiding under my sheets looking at the crack underneath the door and here I am again, back to 4 years old, and calling out to something in my sleep. God -- I was praying to God. And God was... was... was, uh...

Wayne: You were praying to God?

Guest: When I was 4... when I was 4 I did and that gave me comfort. It was like there was Somebody there watching over me and it was definitely a masculine feeling at that point when I was 4. When I'm 21 or 20, you know, what was I looking for? Heck, I was dead. I wasn't looking for anything. I'd just died. I hadn't even figured out that I was dead yet. But I did look up , okay, and looked up and behind me so I remember looking up and behind me.

Wayne: So it was BEHIND you. If you would have looked straight up you wouldn't have seen the Light yet?

Guest: I think so. I twisted... I mean literally, and granted... I want you to know I had a broken neck down on the ground and there wasn't no turning it, okay, but spiritually I turned my neck.

Wayne: You had an astral body maybe at this point?

Guest: Something. Yeah, I would call it an astral body. That sounds like a good fit. So I turned around and looked. And up above me there was this little bitty window of Light.

Wayne: Like a pinpoint?

Guest: No, like a little window... like, imagine a window real far away. It wasn't round. It was like a little rectangle, okay, way, way, way far away. And, wow, now THAT reminded me of my little package of Love that I had -- that I had just seen. That was it... my little sum of who I am. And just like Superman I kinda like stuck my arms forward. I didn't see them because it was so dark and then behind me... and I started lifting my chin up... or, granted, I don't see a chin but I felt like I was lifting up my chin and turning towards the Light and then I started floating up... not just like really slow, but kind of quickly. But while I was going up...

Wayne: Do you think it was because of your desire to go toward the Light that you started?

Guest: You know, that same feeling when I was a child when I was flying... my WILL.

Wayne: Because you said you were like 'thrown' into the dark but you weren't thrown into the Light?

Guest: I don't remember actually like landing. I was just there. I was out of my body -- BAM -- I'm in the dark in what I believe is in the bottom of Wherever I am, okay. Some people want to call that place Hell. if it is, it ain't that bad.

Wayne: But you didn't start going to the Light until you turned around and you possibly had the desire to go toward it.

Guest: Well, I knew I wanted to go THERE <>.. okay, when you're looking around and there's no Love whatsoever -- nothing -- and you're thinking 'this is not where I wanna be'...

Wayne: You didn't feel the presence of any other beings?

Guest: No, I didn't. But then as I started going up I started actually seeing stuff. Imagine this: as I'm going up and around me.... first of all, we're talking about absolute Darkness, okay. NOW we're talking about some dark brown, some deep dark purples, some deep deep dark greens... okay, imagine you're at the bottom of a snow cone, a cup pointed up, inverted... and you're in a snow cone and it's twirling around you, okay... like a vortex. I think of it as a washing machine because it seemed like the further I got up, the lighter it became... so I was like rinsing off layers of darkness -- spirits, things like that -- and it felt like that was happening.

Wayne: Do you think that's the Tunnel that near death experiencers talk about?

Guest: You know what?... and that's kind of... I went in the tunnel, yeah. I mean, other experiencers have said the same thing. I just don't.. I don't really read others' experiences because I don't... for me to say 'its like what other people said'.. you know, honestly I try to stick to people that just tell me their personal experiences and nobody's really experienced what I experienced. I mean, they've had similar things but not the same thing. I think that we get what we're allowed to get. It's almost as if it's like they're giving you more information for you to work with for later on. Why? Because They got reasons for it. They need you, obviously, to be back here. And you know now that I do come back because I'm talking on this radio show. But as I got further and further up, yes, I feel beings, something around me on the way up as it gets lighter.

Wayne: So you just feel these colored Lights... you didn't see faces?

Guest: You know what? If I think on it, yes, but it was like that wasn't important. They're out in the peripheral.

Wayne: Do you think these are souls that didn't go to the Light, or maybe they're trapped? Any ideas when you look back on it?

Guest: You know, this is pure speculation at this point. I'm gonna say what I think. I think they're Spirits that are attached to us. They're not our soul. Our soul is this impenetrable, perfect egg. It's impervious, indestructible, filled full of Light, that same substance that I saw in my little 10 minute blip. It's made out of that. But THIS little thing you can't hurt. But I think that as I got further some of those dark, less loving things started coming off of this egg that I was.

Wayne: Do you describe them as entities and maybe what are known as Archons? Who knows, right?

Guest: Archons? You know, I don't know. I just think that we go through our life with all kinds of misunderstandings, misperceptions, stereo types.... they cling onto us, but they don't stay on us because they're not relevant to the Light, to this Love thing that I just saw. They weren't relevant to that. Things that weren't relevant and, you know, inside of every intention there's even like multiple intentions, you know. "I like you and I wanna take you on a date' but really I wanna have sex with you. There's like multiple intentions inside of every intention.

Wayne: Okay, so you're going towards the Light at this point?

Guest: Yeah, I'm going up. So I get up to... like I said, swirling and the Light gets lighter and lighter... lighter, lighter, lighter... and then I just go BOOM! right through this door and when you get to THIS door and there ain't no... it's intense.

Wayne: It's a door of Light?

Guest: Yeah, yeah. Imagine you're going through a... imagine there's a....

Wayne: So it's a rectangle?

Guest: Yeah, like a tall rectangle with the sides being more narrow than the... like a door.

Wayne: This wasn't the sun or anything...?

Guest: Like a dark on the outsides of it and it was flat and I went in, okay. And so I went in and I'm talking about -- you were talking about the sun though -- imagine there's a sun right on the other side of a dark door and the Light couldn't get through and it's brighter than the sun. It's like 10 suns or more, you know. It's brilliant light, but I wasn't seeing through my eyes at this point. I was literally seeing through the center of myself and everything was so bright. Imagine a 1000 shades of light and one little shadow of a line that would help you make out something's in the room. You know, this is a room because there's a least little bit of shade difference over here.

Wayne: What were you thinking to yourself at this point? Holy crap, this experience I'm having.... were you blown away by it all? Do you remember what was going through your mind?

Guest: Yeah! This Light was blasting through me. Imagine the Light is so intense it's burning right through -- not burning like a physical burning -- but imagine that on the other side of you the Light is just going through you.

Wayne: Did you feel intense Love at this point?

Guest: Yeah, it was awesome. The Love was funny, happy, glad, joy... just like 'Wow! My child has arrived'. You know, 'cool'.

Wayne: My 'child'...So you think this Light was a being then... is that what you're saying?

Guest: Yeah. Well, I didn't know it at that point. I just felt like somebody really loved me. You know, imagine that little bitty 10 minutes of film I had way back when and this being was full of all of that, but not just my 10 minutes of everything but every bit of Light that there is.

Wayne: The door of Light was this being or you went through a door of Light into that Light?

Guest: Yeah, yeah.

Wayne: Do you think this being is God, or...?

Guest: You know ...

Wayne: You're not comfortable with that word?

Guest: I'm really not. There's a lot... you wanna know the God I grew up with was -- It wasn't THAT, you know what I mean? If you wanna call God...

Wayne: Is this the Demiurge you're talking about or...?

Guest: Nah, this was the Light. The Light was Love. I mean, there's a lot of people that say 'God is Love'. They don't believe it for a second, but they say it. 'God is Love'. Oh, even when God is spanking you and making you die from an aneurysm, God is Love. Oh, when you were just in a car crash, 'God is Love'. No.

Wayne: So the Being didn't identify itself and say 'Hi, I'm God or I'm Jesus or Whatever'?

Guest: Well, I just felt this being's love and I just knew that it was The Sum of All Love, I KNEW that. Like THIS was all of it. I was a itty bitty tiny little cell-size of Love, but THIS was ALL of it. I mean, if you can --

Wayne: It's just Light for as far as you can see. Everything was Light at this point?

Guest: Lots of Light, okay, but then

Wayne: Any other beings around?

Guest: But THEN one popped up right beside me after I got over the Light blasting through me and start looking around a little bit. There was another.... to the... as I soon as I looked away from it at all things got -- it was still light -- bit it wasn't like blasting Light, you know. And I'm looking to my right and here's this ball of Light right there. And I can't see any feet or legs so for me to say how big it is I can't... there's no sense of measurement, okay, I mean, I don't know how big it was but it looked like a ball of Light... and there it was. And it was a ball of Light... and it was there. And it's like...

Wayne: You hadn't seen any of your loved ones at this point, like no mother, father or anybody that's passed on?

Guest: If I did, I went right past them.

Wayne: Yeah.

Guest: Okay, I felt like I went to a pretty high place. Wherever I went was pretty much past all the lower densities.

Wayne: So this smaller Being of Light, this orb of Light, this new orb... did it talk to you... ?

Guest: Well, first of all you called the larger light an orb... I can't call it that. I didn't even see it. It was so intense I couldn't even look at it. I had to turn my head just to keep from looking at it because it was so brilliant. you know, it's like looking at the sun from 10 feet away. Would you do it? ..It was just... you can't see anything if you're looking straight into it and so I turned my head and saw this orb of Light up off the deck there. I knew there was a deck, I could tell, and this being just kind of like communicates to me to come with him and I say him because...

Wayne: It was telepathic?

Guest: Well, you know, telepathic...

Wayne: Heart to heart?

Guest: Whatever you wanna call it. Something. You know, telepathic just seems like a misuse of the word. I don't know how to describe it. My intentions... I knew its intentions. Telepathic, you don't think of it as.... I knew this being's heart, its intentions, what it meant. And it was really apparent that it was here for ME. And this being said, "Let's go". You know, basically it didn't SAY...it just HINTED that we need to go to this room, okay, and so we went into this cavern, cavernous-like place, and saw the inside of this cavern. It's like really cloudy and I notice in here there's pinks and yellows light, almost like being in a -- not exactly like a seashell -- but it's something like that. You know, it's like these pinks and yellows mostly, and then white. So it's like cloudy, pinkish, yellowish. But you can see the flat floor on either side for as far as you can see are these alcoves like arches. You have an archway, and when you're passing by them you see like a...at a church they have a little bitty stand, a pulpit, right? And there'd be a pulpit and there'd be like a book there. And I say 'like a book' because it wasn't really like a bound book. It was different. But you could see them and they would start... you could start kind of like knowing what they were and inside of this...

Wayne: Like some kind of holographic display, like the holodek or something like that?

Guest: No, it was REAL. I mean, whenever you say Holodek and you're thinking of, well, is this a representation of it... it didn't FEEL that way. It seemed solid even though it was cloudy and everything. Man, it wasn't like a... it was just too real. There was subtleties, you know. When you think of a Holodek you're thinking of crisp lines, no blurred.... everything is crisp, but not here, no. What was in this room was a 3-D recording of every single soul's light. Every single spirit's light. In other words, there's spirits and there's souls. And I thought of my human soul, but I also just thought of sometimes there's something that even is inanimate that might have...

Wayne: like the Spirit of Love...?

Guest: Nah, I'm just talking about, like, your guitar, you know. Like if something was loved, then it had love. If there was a crystal that was loved, then it has love. If there was a, you know, I don't know. It seemed like even inanimate objects had some kind of something. But...every little insect. Every little frog. Every tree. Every animal. Every creature. Every human. And they all had a little recording of their existence from the beginning.

Wayne: On Earth, right... of their existence on Earth?

Guest: Yeah, on Earth. And I'm not saying that there aren't other places like this or other places. I'm just saying I saw was literally the entire history and future of every single being, thing...anything had -- now, this is like the rated PG-13 version or PG-13 or whatever you wanna call it because inside of this hall there's none of that ugliness, okay, NONE of it. It's all been adjusted through a filter of Love.

Wayne: Sanitized or something like that?

Guest: Sanitized with Love, what's left in Love. Because if you look inside of every intention you've ever had in your whole life if you're human you probably had two intentions -- one of them's your selfish intention, one of them's your loving intention. You can do two things at the same time and one intention might stick out a little bit, but the other one might be back there. And a lot of people even do bad things thinking they're doing something good somehow. And so, but the main thing is the intention was for a loving intention and kindness, joy, mercy, compassion, love, love and kindness.

Wayne: Did you by any chance experience like your past life... Were you aware that you had many lives and know what those were?

Guest: Yeah, I got to see one in particular. You know, it sounds kinda hokey but I was a pilot, you know. I had the complete understanding that I was a German pilot in World War II who shot down an Allied aircraft -- the Americans and British. As a young man, you know I had flying dreams. I fantasized about flying. I had astral projection, whatever you want to call it. I had a near death experience. Whatever it is you wanna call it, flying was something innately attached to who I am and I had this understanding -- Now I want... people say you have past lives, but it's kind of like that 10-minute blip. I just had this 10-minute blip of things he was working on, you know what I mean? And the 10-minute blip I saw him... he killed a whole lot of people -- Allied bomber pilots mostly. Not just the pilots. Their crew members. He never did shoot anybody in their parachute, I know that, so he had SOME sense of nobility, if you wanna call it that. But he killed hundreds and hundreds of people. Night time, a lot of night time missions, but also daytime missions and he was very good at shooting down the bombers because he had real good eyesight. He could see REAL far away just like I can. I can't see worth a darn up close , but I can see for miles and miles and miles.

Wayne: This sounds very similar to the life that you just had. This sounds like something out of [the Stargate SG-1 episode] Avatar where we keep coming back and trying to do the same thing over and over until you get it right.

Guest: I think there's something to that and, anyway.. and he had a wife and a daughter and he totally ignored them. He just loved flying and he first got into flying so he could, you know, fly. There's this like religion. Religion puts this sweet little thing in front of you and calls it God and says 'God loves you' and says 'Come to this little bitty light' and it loves you and it's sweet. And then it piles on top of you dogma. I'm talking about hatred, competition that MY religion's better than YOUR religion. I mean, ... anyway, he wanted to fly just like I did it when I was 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 during the military flying aircraft and I would do ANYTHING for it. This German pilot would do ANYTHING to fly and if you're a German in World War II you believe that God is on your side and you believe in your country and you believe that THAT is more important than your own family, your own children.

Wayne: So this was you... in THIS life you were a German Pilot.

Guest: You're talking about a past life [Wayne: Yeah]... and to say it was a past life, I don't know. You know, people... I think they use that past life thing too strongly. I think that we get little pieces of lives. We don't live their whole life. If we remembered their whole life, then we could go back and backtrack to every little thing they ever did, but it was more like that little 10-minute blip, but it wasn't just the positive stuff here so, anyway, I had this understanding that this German pilot had an 'Aha moment', okay: he gets jumped by an American aircraft from behind and the bullets start flying through his back and neck. And he goes 'Good, it's over'. He was sick of the war. He was sick of the killing and I understood it clearly that he was sick of it, and he had done a lot of killing, ignored his family, ignored the important stuff all so he could fly aircraft. And, you know, I got that and I don't even know where that actually even comes in but I believe that I was shown that

Wayne: You said.. I know you don't necessarily consider it a past life, but if it WAS a past life, it seems you didn't learn the lesson. If he had those moments where 'Oh, finally it's over', but yet in THIS life you didn't say 'Oh, I don't like war. I'm not going to go to war'... you know what I'm saying?

Guest: I was headlong going in the same direction.

Wayne: Right. You don't think you remembered those thoughts that he had?

Guest: No, not before that time... before that moment. I mean, I look at it: I was just doing the same exact thing. I just did it from a different flag.

Wayne: Reincarnation explains a lot of things for me like if a child prodigy can play a piano at five years old. Maybe he practiced for years and years in different lifetimes. So it kind of explains the riddle of inequality and injustice, but it would seem like if it's a real phenomenon and it's purposeful then you would hope that you would learn that lesson, right? You would come back in THIS life and you wouldn't go though... you would remember all lives, you know what I'm saying? It's like, I don't know.

Guest: Well, I just think I was heading... I was manifesting something really, really bad -- more than just shooting down a few airplanes. You know, I think I got side tracked... pushed... whatever you want to call it off that main road to have my meeting with God.

Wayne: Yeah, and I've read a lot of books like Michael Newton where he takes clients... some take clients into past lives..but he's discovered an in-between life state where you go to your soul group and you review your previous life, what went wrong and how you can learn lessons and everything. But he says he has this one client and that took him 4,000 years to overcome jealousy... he says he's intolerant as hell, but he's overcome jealousy. And so is that the case that it just takes us many, many, many, many lifetimes to overcome things like that, you think?

Guest: You know, I'm gonna get to that [Wayne: Okay.] I think that I'd be going too far forward.

Wayne: Okay, go on with where you're at here. So you saw at least one other lifetime that you think was yours, right?

Guest: Well, it looked like me. [Wayne: , okay.]... you know? He looked just like me. I'm not saying he WAS me, but he sure as heck looked like me, you know?

Wayne: Okay, so what happened next then?

Guest: Okay, so I'm going through these rooms, you know, and I'm realizing that the Sum -- I don't know if you can understand the gravity of what I'm saying -- that every bug, fly, mosquito if you go down that track has a life.

Wayne: So you think that a bug has a soul?

Guest: Spirit... or soul. I don't know. You can call it a soul, if you want...I mean, I didn't get the sense of that but I got -- at least they had a spirit and it wasn't evil or dark, or whatever, but in THIS place everything had a purpose. Every bug, tree, rock, grain of sand... if you go down small enough you get down to the molecular level and every molecule inside of a grain of sand [Wayne: has it's own consciousness] have their own consciousness. Every molecule is like an entity unto itself, okay, and outside of that we're a part of something bigger than that, but it depends on how far out you go and you start realizing that everything in this room was part of one thing. You've heard of oneness but I mean literally -- imagine if you were to take the entire Earth -- and I DID see this later -- I can describe it RIGHT NOW though.

And this is something that... you called him a Demiurge and I can relate to that but he showed me what that was. The entire Earth is an organism, like a plant, and every molecule affects every other molecule, especially the influence right around them is important... okay, like the person right next to you -- the cat, the dog, the plant that you have in your apartment.

Wayne: He showed you this while you were in this cavernous place at this point or was this later on, somewhere else?

Guest: Later on, but you asked me and I think -- it was later -- but I saw how everything influences everything else. I mean, everything is a part of this one organic being and that organic being is Earth. It's like... you've heard of Mother Earth -- well, I didn't get that masculine-feminine thing out of the Earth, but what I DID get was that it was an organic being, like a plant.

Wayne: With its own consciousness.

Guest: With its own consciousness. Okay, just like your arm has its own intentions completely different than your tongue, right? Their thoughts are completely different, I mean, if you were to take them individually. What is it that's works for your tongue isn't working for your hand. Sometimes they meet and work together. However, that's the way the Earth was. It's like everything has its role, what it's doing, and, uh, anyway... I wanna move on from there, okay.

Wayne: Yeah, go ahead.

Guest: Okay, so if you understand the gravity of how many of these books there are .. like, imagine, I mean [Wayne: 3-D books you're talking about?]... yeah, I mean, if you just the count the... there's like trillions, literally, trillions of cockroaches, you know ... if you just start there, right? and mosquitoes..

Wayne: Each soul or whatever has its own book, like a book of life?

Guest: Everything has a book of life for every molecule. I mean, you gotta get pretty dadgum... you gotta expand your mind to a place where it can't go. ... where a human mind is gonna run out. You're gonna run out of possible, I mean, they say computers are getting bigger and bigger and so they store more and more and more but just imagine the capacity of recording the entire life of every single molecule from the beginning to the end and it's stored. And not only has it been stored, it's been edited at this point.. in the Light, okay.

Wayne: Edited in that the 'bad' stuff has been edited out.

Guest: Right... well, whatever you wanna call 'bad'.

Wayne: 'Bad's not the right word.

Guest: Bad's the wrong word to use [Wayne: yeah, yeah, yeah] but anything not related to kindness: insignificance [Wayne: Stuff that doesn't matter] Right, and there's a core substance. Now something I DIDN'T see. I didn't see any insects in heaven, okay, even though they were in these books... I could see flowers... I say I didn't see insects, but I know darn well there were butterflies.

Wayne: This is heaven that you're talking about heaven at this point? You're talking about Heaven?

Guest: You know what? That's... what do you want to call heaven? I'll tell you what I think it is and I saw it on the way out. It's like a... it's a square. It's like a big spaceship.

Wayne: I'm just trying to differentiate. The heaven's not this cavernous place, right?

Guest: No, okay, [Wayne: Can we get back to the cavernous place? We'll get to the Heaven part]... I wanna say something -- there's no linear time there so if I sound like I'm...

Wayne: You didn't experience it like THIs happened and then THIS happened? It's more like you come back and it's all kinda oneness, simultaneous?

Guest: No, I'm gonna say.. let's stick .... if you could help me with THIS, I'm gonna work on through it [Wayne: Sure] , ok.... I'm in the cloud room... I'm realizing, I'm made aware that every molecule has a purpose, okay, a loving purpose, alright?... at least the ones in those books.. alright, and you walk into these alcoves and they just pop out you know, it's like Wow!, you're living it. So if you were to say reincarnation, if you were to experience that thing, you'd say 'I lived it' because you're in it. You experience it just like you were there, okay. So if you wanna make a trip down and feel what Elvis Presley felt, I'm sure you'd walk in there and check that out if that was really part of your purpose, okay... I mean, apparently there's a bunch of people that think they're Elvis Presley, right? [Wayne: Right.] anyway, I'm sure that a lot of them took that journey at some point and they really believe, right? But I saw what I saw and what I saw was that they have all these alcoves and inside of this ginormous, impossibly large, cloudy room is the history of -- and the future and the present -- of every living, organic thing and even then even some inorganic things, if you can understand that.

Okay, so let's move back out. I'm getting my book alright, so literally I went to... Imagine going to.....

Wayne: You said that you experienced the Demiurge. So I'm trying to figure out... have you met the Demiurge at this point?

Guest: No, nah. Okay, so I am basically going to put my book on its rightful place, kinda like: touching base, here is my book and then I'm taking it with me, and I'm going to go meet what I'm gonna find out is the Light, okay. And so I take my book and this orb is right beside me like preparing me to go meet this thing, and so I'm going towards the Light and there's this gigantic doors. I mean, imagine there's two knockers that they have on those old doors, you know? [Wayne: yeah]... ornate and these doors are made out of like chopped -- I wanna say cedar, but it's not cedar -- but something like that...and I'm opening up these doors, right?, but this being that's right beside me says, "Keep your head down"

Wayne: That reminds me of the Bob Dylan song "Knocking on Heaven's Door", you actually could knock ... I mean, you hear about the gates of heaven [Guest: Yeah. ] I guess there really IS a door

Guest: Yes, well, this one is different from that light door that I went through. This is physical looking. In fact, you can't see the Light through it, you know what I mean. Of course, when you open the door back up, he told me to look down or I'd die and I understood him. [Wayne: Look DOWN or you'll die?] Yeah, physically look down or you're gonna die and so I'm looking down... I'm looking over off to the sides, you know, because I'm a curious guy, you know, and it seems like I'm in a stadium looking off to my right, looking off to my left. And I'm going forward and it feels like I'm on my knees although there's no perception of that because I can't see my knees... don't see anything physical at all, and the Light's just BLASTING through me and, you know, I feel like I'm moving forward and like I'm crawling or moving, hedging my way forward, at least lowering my head very low. And I'm looking off to my right, the left, and there's these gigantic pillars, I mean, HUGE pillars and they're marble -- they're MARBLE pillars. But embedded in them is all these crystals, all these gems and rubies and sapphires of every kind you could imagine. Every one of those little bitty gems is talking. They have a little story. It's like these are their stories and they're stored inside of these gigantic marble things and they're talking, and they're telling their story. It's really cool. But it's like, you know, "Yeah, that's cool, that's great" but I couldn't really focus on them 'cause I'm sitting there about ready to have my meeting with God [Wayne laughs ] and you even said it earlier -- is it God? And I thought it was going to be God, I really did -- I thought "I'm about to meet God" and, I'm going up there and then I sense thousands and thousands and thousands of souls on either side of me -- angels, whatever you want to call them [Wayne: They're in the staid um?] Yeah! In the stadium. They're like cheering me on , [Wayne: That's a beautiful story.] It IS. It's awesome. It's kind of like, WOW!, this is my moment to shine and all I got is my little bitty 10 minute film , you know? I mean, it ain't much, dude. It ain't.

Wayne: But they were cheering. Maybe they knew something you didn't know.

Guest: I'm sure they did. I'm sure they did, ok. So I got my little story to tell about riding motorcycles with my friend, Deuce, out in the field and him sharing his motorcycle with me and me crashing into a tree because I didn't know how to drive it, but the fact that he wasn't worried about me crashing into the tree.... he wasn't worried about his motorcycle... he was worried about ME. You know... you know... I've missed that every other time I've talked about my near death experience. That was one of those little moments and -- I can't believe I've missed that. But I was flying in airplanes. I remember flying in airplanes and I'd be flying along and I could see through the back of my head, through the window, and I could see what I saw, and I could see the river down below me. I was following along just for the joy of flying. I wasn't doing anything.... there was no purpose for it. I was just doing it for joy's sake. And that was what I have for my flying. I have those memories of .. not the moments when I was trying to get to --

Wayne: These were part of the highlights of your 10-minute film?

Guest: Yeah. My flying, but it was the JOYFUL part of it. It wasn't how accurate I was in landing, in nailing my landing because that was something I have in my brain. But in this 10 little minutes of flying I got to see the river down below, seeing it from a bird's eye. I got to feel the sense of beauty of the Earth and I had sunrises and sunsets, and fishing with my grandfather. I mentioned that earlier, but what was significant and this Light was marveling at it. Imagine if you're a little bitty baby... 18 months old... no, let's go back... 9 months old and you're trying to take your first steps and you keep falling down. And then you get up and you fall down. And then you cry because you couldn't do it and then a month later, you get up, pull yourself up on the coffee table and then you take those first two or three steps. THAT'S the way the Light looked and perceived my little ten minutes, you know, my little blip of who I Was, and marveled at it.

Wayne: For anyone who doubts this story, his eyes are starting to well up with tears, I mean, you can tell he is coming from a very emotional standpoint.

Guest: Well, imagine this: just how a parent feels when their child takes its first steps. You know, I might have been angry because I fell down. I might have been angry because I didn't get what I wanted. I might have cried. I might have thrown a fit on the ground. All that's gone whenever that Light sees me taking my little baby steps... "ah, wow, that's awesome... that's awesome. That child never did anything wrong. THAT child never did a thing wrong ever -- EVER!" and laughing... laughing at me, not at me like as in "you fool" but as in "how awesome".

Wayne: So far, so good. They're showing the beautiful, positive moments. That's gotta be a good sign, right?

Guest: Yeah! And then God asks me -- and I called this being 'God'.

Wayne: I mean, can you imagine if he would have chosen your worst moments, then that wouldn't have felt too good.

Guest: No... and a lot of people are going to say "you're gonna get it rough on the next time, but I think what I was shown that for was to know what are the good actions, the good stuff, you know?

Wayne: Yeah, I've read a lot of near death experiencers' books and a lot of them do mention when they have their life review that they DO remember the pain that they've caused other people... you were lucky enough, I guess, you didn't have to see some of that."

Guest: Well, I mean, if you wanna call it.. I think I got shown an example out of my life. This is what I want you to work on, you know what I mean? Instead of being this brutal dictator God who sits there and beats you to death with a hammer over your head every time you mess up and smacks you down,... oh my gosh. Once you know the REAL THING it... anytime you hear anything that doesn't sound like the real thing, you go 'aww that's not true, that's not what I meant, that's not what I believe.' The Being of Light asked me, "So what do you think of your life?" And it wasn't talking... it was communicating this to me and I said, "God".. first of all, I said, "God... thank you God for my life". And it just didn't sound right because MY version of God was pretty different than probably what most peoples' version is. MINE was this ruthless God , I mean, that hated the very people that I came to understand, you know, all my thoughts about hating --

Wayne: So what was your answer? Were you just like speechless, or..?

Guest: Nah, you know what? "Thank you for my life." You know what I did? It said, "What did you think of your life?" And I said, "Thank you, God, for my life. Thank you for flying " I was like, there's my video. "Thank you for flying. Thank you for my grandparents. Thank you for my mother. Thank you for my friends." I was just being thankful, right?, because I know that this being allowed that for me to have these relationships and for me to be a pilot. HOWEVER, what really gets me is that people say, "Well, you know everything in heaven." I didn't know everything at that moment. I was given a pause. What do you think from your own understanding? I said, "Well, I never had any children. I've never been married." I thought this has got to be the answer, right? I'm sitting there contemplating, "What exactly is this being getting at?" because it wasn't obvious. And God asked me... he said, "Well, did you learn enough about Love?" and that's when I returned.

Wayne: He asked you, "DID you learn enough about Love?"

Guest: "DID you learn enough about Love?" and that's when I retorted, "You know, I've never been married, never had children.". What a stupid thing to say you know what I mean?

Wayne: Well, if you would've given me a wife I probably could've learned a lot more!

Guest: Yeah! But I was thinking that was what God meant. Obviously you haven't learned enough about Love... psssshh... it was a pretty ridiculous answer, but that's what I had, you know? So the second I said it, I'm like a big boot out of heaven. The second I chose.

Wayne: You got kicked out of heaven right then?

Guest: Yeah, instantly. [Wayne: Wow. ] It wasn't like a... it's like You made your decision, now you gotta live with it. You know what I mean? You're done.

Wayne: You don't think your answer was good enough?

Guest: Nah, I don't know...

Wayne: You hadn't learned enough or whatever?

Guest: Whatever, I just hadn't learned enough, period. Look at that little 10 minutes I had.

And so I get kicked out on this road. And when they say streets of gold you think of it as religious speak. [Wayne: There they were.] There it was, the streets of gold.

Wayne: This was like translucent. You could see through it?

Guest: Yeah, yeah. Like a urethane, polyurethane. You could see through it, but it wasn't like... you can't see what's on the other side, but you can definitely see through it and it wasn't physical gold, but it's trees.... but you remember when I talked to you about the trees and plants and things like that having lives, [Wayne; Yeah ] but imagine there's no death in them... they're at the absolute peak of their healthiness, the absolute perfect place where there's no death, dying, nothing... they're there. They're flowering, blooming where they're crisp. They're green. Every blade of grass is like vital, just amazing the story of that as opposed to what you see around you every day which is decay, and dying, and death... and it was just beautiful. And so I was getting in this big, huge, long line and what was in front of me was really interesting in that there were these orbs of Light and even though I didn't perceive myself as an orb of Light because I was looking through, I mean, imagine you're sitting in the middle of this egg and you're looking out of it. You're not looking at your own physical self but I didn't see a mirror so I couldn't see a mirror to see myself so... I'm looking at this big, long, huge line going down this golden road. And they're all walking right into the most dark door, through the most darkest door. Imagine on the other side of that door I came in... and there it is, going out -- another one, or is it the same one? I don't know. I can't tell you, but it felt like it was, but it may not have been. And I'm looking back on it now and I'm

Wayne: So they're all going through this dark door and you're like in line to go through the dark door too? [Guest: Yeah.] You thought, 'what else am I gonna'? 'I guess this is what I'm supposed to do' kind of thing?

Guest: Now here's where I had a succinct moment, like one of those BIG moments and here's what I thought, and I think we talked about it earlier... I said, "I've done this many times before". I mean it was like quote-unquote. BAM! Right there! This is important. I've done this MANY times before. What is many? Was it 400,000 years? I don't think so. Many doesn't sound like THAT. But many times, I've done this before, you know what I mean? And I started walking along.

Wayne: So at this point you're going back to Earth kind of thing?

Guest: No, no concept of that. I'm just really curious about the orbs and they're like a story popping out at me, their core selves. You could see that they're going to have personalities. You could see their concepts, their thoughts, their pre-thoughts, you know. you could see what their intentions are and we were walking together and -- BOOM -- you just drop off into darkness.

Wayne: So you were all orbs of Light.

Guest: Yeah. Right, and so I'm dropping off into this darkness and I'm falling like straight down. There's no sense of how fast, but you just knew you were going really fast, and I KNEW I was going fast, but there was nothing to be able to measure yourself from except for the other orbs of Light that were falling. I'm going along and I see them in front of me. I see them behind me and I'm turning around looking. And then I look ALL the way behind me and that's when it got really crazy because I started seeing like a Chinese dragon behind me or like a ladder of lights going up. It's like a ladder going up of Lights going all the way up into that hole which was Light now.

Wayne: A stairway to heaven kind of thing?

Guest: Well, whatever you wanna call it. If you wanna call it that, but I wanna tell you what it looks like. [Wayne: Yeah, yeah.]

Guest: It's square. I mean. [Wayne: Heaven is square, a cube] Yeah, I'm looking at it. Well, it could have been rectangular but the perspective of it was so huge and giant but it had a top, a bottom, sides, and it could have been a rectangle but it seemed like a square... cube... whatever. And this is pre Star Trek Borg, you know. I understood this before then. It was square, It was like a big, gigantic metal spaceship.

Wayne: I was just gonna say you wouldn't describe it as a ship, but, yeah, I guess you do.

Guest: Yeah... well, what else would it be?

Wayne: Yeah, it's floating...flying, right?

Guest: It's flyng...floating in space and it ain't a planet, you know. It ain't round.

Wayne: That's very interesting.

Guest: You know. [Wayne: yeah] Okay, and it's got that door, the inverse. Walking out it's dark, but when you look back it's light. And I'm falling from it, and here's the really cool part. I'm going down and the orbs, the light orbs, are starting to peel off. Some of them are going to the left and right and up and down. Then I start seeing stars. Just one star. Two stars. Little faint, out there in the peripheral, right? And then...shooosh.. I'm just like blasting through stars, past stars. I look around me and I see these orbs peeling off going to different stars, different places. But you could SEE their INTENTION and they were so DIFFERENT. If you -- and this is what changed ME as a person was this trip, okay, because it wasn't what I had just experienced about Love, no. There were a THOUSAND things that changed me. This changed me: whenever you see how different other beings are going to other stars and they have a core -- the same core that every other light had -- orb had which was something like Love, okay, but their perception of it is SO vastly different. I mean, they say we're all alike. No, we're not. These other beings are NOT like us. They are VERY different. Their whole way of perceiving things is different. They have a core of Love, yes. But they're not like us They don't get up in the morning, raise their kids, and go to work like we do. They're DIFFERENT. They're so different that it made the difference between me and Communists, me and homosexuals and Muslims and Liberals to be meaningless. Imagine that it's so meaningless the difference.

Wayne: You feel like they were more evolved than what we are, is that what you are saying, or just different?

Guest: Different.

Wayne: Is it because they're going to different worlds..do you feel like they were you... they were similar to you in that they were a soul but going to a different world, or a different planet.

Guest: To say they were different, they were SO different. Their whole concepts, the way they thought, their thought processes. The way they intellectualized. They don't think the way we do. They don't think I'm thirsty, drink a glass of water.

Wayne: Going to one of THOSE places wasn't an option for you? You were just kind of being drawn somewhere?

Guest: I was going to Earth, you know. I was going back to Earth. What's that?

Wayne: You were being pulled there?

Guest: I was falling right there. I was literally falling at a very fast pace and so I start seeing stars go by. I see these beings going off. But what I'm trying to get at from the whole thing is that we're -- human beings are so much alike that we're almost like a clone of each other. That's how much alike we are compared to these other beings. we're almost like just almost --

Wayne: It seems kind of petty because someone else has a different color of skin, different sex, whatever, we're so much more ALIKE than we are different [Guest: Yeah] if you look at it from that perspective. We don't have 10 heads or whatever, right?

Guest: Well, yeah. It's insignificant the differences between us. I mean, we're more akin to a grasshopper than we are to one of THOSE things, you know what I mean... whatever they were. There were beings going to wherever they were going. But we're more akin to a grasshopper on this Earth.

Wayne: But you wouldn't look at them as more advance necessarily.

Guest: Nah, I don't think so. Their light was just like mine. I mean, THAT'S what's advanced. And it's the best there is. There's nothing that's better than that. It's just a vessel. we trap this identity that we call human being inside of this, you know, we wrap the soul around it, you know. But the soul is what's advanced. But they start peeling off and going, and then I start seeing planets fly by...

Wayne: Do you see galaxies... do you see the Milky Way galaxy, spiral arms or anything like that? You weren't like in a different galaxy? You were in space though. {Guest: Yeah] So maybe you were already in the Milky Way Galaxy, or the Galactic core... I'm just trying to... any idea where you were?

Guest: No, I was WAY beyond that. I was beyond. Imagine a place where there are no stars, okay, you're that far out....beyond the stars. [Wayne: okay] There's no stars. So if you were to go to the last star and then go past that, alright?

Wayne: So you were sort of back in the darkness then

Guest: Yeah, but it wasn't the same place. I can tell you that. I can tell you there's a huge difference. They're not the same location, okay. I know that. If you go to the last star and then keep going twice that, you know, you might get close to it, right, because I was falling...

Wayne: Light years and light years... hundreds of thousands of light years.

Guest: I don't know. To be able to measure it linearly [Wayne: You were WAY out there] I'm out there. Imagine you get Hubble and you go as far as you go and then go twice that. And then go 10 times that. I mean, whatever that is.

Wayne: But you're coming back to Earth at this point [Guest: Yeah.] At any point do you start to see galaxies?

Guest: Yeah, but I was just looking forward, you know what I mean? I'm looking at the orbs. I'm not paying attention really. But when I started seeing Mars and Venus, that kind of stuff, that was catching my attention,

Wayne: So you saw some of OUR planets then? [Guest: Yeah, I did.] Wayne: Saturn?

Guest: Mars. I saw Mars. I didn't remember seeing the Sun.

Wayne: The Moon?

Guest: No. Isn't that weird? I didn't see the Sun or the Moon. Isn't that crazy?

Wayne: That IS weird

Guest: You know it was kinda like... [Wayne: Where ARE they? I mean, maybe you were distracted? But it's interesting that you saw some of these other planets.

Guest: I saw the planets, but I didn't see the Sun or the Moon. It's almost like they weren't there. I mean, that's just weird. But I'm coming back and then I'm seeing a little bitty tiny blue marble and it gets bigger and bigger and bigger and then I'm about to hit the atmosphere and then -- BAM!!!!! -- stopped!.

Wayne: Stopped?!! What happened?

Guest: Well.... you wanted to hear a story about the Demiurge. [Wayne: Yeah!] I couldn't tell you the Demiurge story without talking about the Light first so I don't want you to mistake these two different personalities.

Wayne: I actually thought we were gonna talk about the Demiurge first and the get to the Light, kind of end it on a positive note... but it works either way . It's fine.

Guest: I'm sorry because if I don't tell you about the Light first then you're going to think the Demiurge is the Light.

Wayne: Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, a lot of people would.

Guest: And if you wanna go back and change the order, I don't care.

Wayne: No, no, no, no.

Guest: You can start right here.

Wayne: I was just thinking, hey, we need to end this on a positive, happy note, but we can still do that [Guest: It is what it is. ] Well, you haven't got to the point where you talk about the end of it all or the game and that'll definitely be a happy note so...

Guest: I think so. Wayne: Okay, so all of a sudden you stopped. You're entering the Earth's atmosphere. [Guest: Right.] [Guest: BAM!!] Then BAM!! What happened?

Guest: I'm like right in front of this Norman Rockwell kinda of looking guy -- big, long flowing white hair... big white beard... [Wayne: Sounds like Santa Claus ] ...nah, it aint't that. You ain't gonna think it's Santa Claus after this although a lot of people... we'll talk about that later... He had burning, red eyes... brassy face... brass-colored face. But he's translucent kinda like the gold up in 'heaven', whatever you want to call that place. And he's SEVERE. This guy's not somebody that you wanna mess with. I mean, he's just full of SERIOUS intent. I mean, very, very serious guy and he's got all these star maps and he's showing them to me and I'm like absorbing it and he's trying to explain to me everything and I'm having to make some agreements to go into a body and he's showing me why. THIS star's aligned with THIS and THIS galaxy and THIS planet and THIS, THAT and it's like these maps.

Wayne: You don't remember these details at this point.. you just remember that he was explaining... it's all over your head? Kind of like you couldn't follow it?

Guest No, I understood it at the time but it's like it was blanked from my... it's like it was taken from me. I was left... he opened up some new books, okay, for me and he showed me how we interact with one another. And one of them was 'waves'. We're in waves and the waves go across the whole Earth and they're like a... imagine ocean waves. And there are waves that go across the entire Earth of Light and Darkness. And he showed me how he was like a filter for the Earth that caused the waves. In other words, he caused the waves by his presence of Darkness. It's like imagine putting up a veil in front of a window and some of it goes through and somehow putting the veil caused the Light and the Darkness on the Earth to pull up. The Light pulls up and the Darkness pulls down. And so the whole Earth was like a big round ball of waves that move across.

Wayne: Sort of like a prism in some kind of sense, or not?

Guest: I don't know. I mean, imagine a bowling ball but with waves going all the way across it. if you wanna call it a prism, I just know what it was, okay, and the Light pulled down and ... I mean, the Light pulled UP, the Darkness pulled DOWN and it was a perfect balance to him. And he was trying to explain to me how HE was superior to the Light. Okay. How WAS he superior? Because he had this thing balanced. Everybody lined up for miles and miles to come here because they wanted to experience what he has, and what he has is this perfect balance of 1/3 Light and 2/3... I mean 2/3 Light and 1/3 Darkness. It's like a counterbalance, the ying and yang thing. But the Lightness, it's more Light than it is Dark and it's not always exactly in balance. What he was describing is that he needed me to DO some things, to keep the balance of Light up because if they're aren't people doing 'Light' things then the balance gets too wonkered and it gets too dark and it's like GAME OVER -- everybody goes home, it's DONE. And he has to... he can not... I mean, people call him the Devil. How can a guy be the Devil who wants good things to happen, you know, that wants 'Light' things to happen, that wants Love, kindness, joy?

Wayne: Yeah, I was just about to say he's kind of encouraging you to do good works, that doesn't sound, you know, like the Devil.

Guest: Right? He ain't the Devil. I've heard --

Wayne: Maybe in a selfish way because he wanted to keep his system going?

Guest: Well, yeah. Yeah, the motive is totally insincere, you know what I mean? [Wayne: Right ] It's just because he wants to prove that he's better, you know, than the Light. He says, Look. I got all these people that come down here... trillions of souls, spirits... they all come down here... they line up.

Wayne: So you said you were falling so you think that we're the... we fell...we're the... you hear about the fall and the 2/3 of angels that rebelled against.. you know, Lucifer's rebellion that rebeled against God and came. Do you think that we're all part of, or most of the souls here are part of that?

Guest: Well, I think a third of us are. [Wayne: a third rebelled. Yeah, that's right, a third rebelled] ... If you were to balance it out that would be about right because it was 2/3 Light and it was a third Dark.. and it was gray and I didn't see any color. It was really weird. I saw it in grays and I saw the grays. And I saw how the lights can move and cause tsunamis of Light going across and he showed me how I can influence the world in a positive way, meaning Light. And he didn't say the word 'positive' okay, that's MY words. Okay, he's saying he needs me to do this.

Wayne: He just wants the system perpetuated. He wants to keep it going otherwise it's GAME OVER [Guest: yeah,] and his system wasn't so good to begin with, or something?

Guest: Imagine him. He creates tension. He creates tension between me and you. Between me and the Catholics. Me and the Baptists. Me and the Muslims. Me and the Communists. He creates the tension to create the waves, you know what I mean?

Wayne: I think you mentioned the 2/3 Light and the 1/3 Dark... that's probably what's behind the 666 meaning. 2/3 is .666

Guest: Yeah, nobody's saying that. [Wayne: No, I've never heard that before] And I'm the only one [Wayne: Some have mentioned 2/3 but not in that context of light and dark.] But it IS. It IS what it IS. [Wayne: That makes sense.] That's what he showed me. And he showed me that it's HIS game and if I want to participate I've got to agree to do what he says. And you know what that means? He showed me what that means. And when I tell you this

Wayne: You would've said No because everybody lines up for miles.

Guest: If you say 'No' you just sit on a shelf for the rest, until the end of Time, Is that what you want to do? I don't know, but just to be an observer? And maybe not even that. Maybe you just turn off until the end of Time. It's compelling. The story is compelling and that's...

Wayne: I've heard the story. It IS compelling. I can't wait to get to that eventually. agree. But I have to be honest like I was kind of leaning towards NOT going to the Light, you know, and you said it might be okay to hang out for a while, or whatever, but what's the point of being in nothingness and once you DO hear the totality of the story, it's a very, very beautiful story. So anyway... let's go on.

Guest: He tells the story of his failure [Wayne: Failure?] Yeah, and why would he do that? He ultimately concedes. He's in a chess game and he starts losing and when he starts losing... and I'll tell you when -- there's going to be a period of Darkness and he showed me this. Now this is a little bit different how he showed me. Okay, I saw at least three books -- two of them, they blend together somehow. However, one of them I literally saw from a camera outside the Earth, a fixed camera, like it never moves. And it's there. And from this fixed camera I saw the Earth pop up there and then I saw it go through different phases. First it was really beautiful. It wasn't completely light, but it was beautiful, pristine. Then it starts to get a little darker, it gets lighter. That 2/3 balance thing he's showing me how good of a game he's played, what a good chess player he is, right? He's showing me how he manipulates things. When things get a little bit out of whack over here, he lets more Light in, more of your Light folks, those folks who do Light things like love, kindness, joy, compassion, mercy. He starts letting more of THOSE in, right, because he wants to keep his little chess game going [Wayne: Like a juggling act almost ] Yeah, and so he's doing this and then there's the ones that are pulling DOWN and they're like the spirits that cling to us, okay. So all the while you think he's Mr. Nice Guy -- no way!

Wayne: He's trying to prove to God that he can make a system that's better or something? [Guest: Yeah] But how would that be better if it's like 1/2 or 2/3 ratio... you know, I don't understand.. wouldn't you want like 100% Light? If we have 100% light it's all joy. It's all Love. Wouldn't that be better or is there a different perspective that I'm missing?

Guest: I think the unknown. I think the unknown is what drove him initially. Imagine that you're in a big, gigantic room that's completely filled with Light and there's one little square or rectangle of Darkness... and you know everything except what's behind that one little square ... and so you're going to sit there and go by that and you're sitting there doing all these great groovy things... awesome things... amazing things... but yet every time you pass by that little square that says and right in front of it you know that nobody's supposed to go through there and there it is.... oh, there it is.

Wayne: So you don't think the original system that maybe God created was perfect? I mean, at least he [Demiurge] thought that it wasn't perfect? He thought that he could do better?

Guest: I think that little dark square was created to create motion, the sense of motion of multiple perspectives. Okay, I think God split up and I think what God the Light created was a lesser aspect of... of... HERself... I want to say Herself in that that Light that I saw in heaven felt more FEMININE than masculine... maybe that's too strong. You know, it's too strong to say 'feminine', but it was less [ Wayne: Not if that's the way you experienced it ] Well, you know, masculine to me is this abusive Father that I see in my religion as opposed to this loving Divine kind being that never ever changes.

Wayne: But you experienced the Demiurge as a male?

Guest: Yeah, it was male. It was and he was trying to show me how his game was better than the Light game. you know, you go up there [Wayne: Was he convincing at all? He makes a good presentation?] He made a good presentation, you know, because I signed up, didn't I? I came back.

Wayne: In order to come here did you have to agree... you were talking about some kind of agreements.

Guest: Oh, yeah. Imagine if you were a computer programmer and they have statements called IF-THEN-ELSE statements. Imagine that if there's this one plan that he shows you and if you do ALL of THIS, everything you dream of will come true and it will be more or less painless and you'll walk through life and you'll be, you know, the savior of the world, right, and yet you get to be the hero, you know?

Wayne: Really? That's what the main plan was... you get to be... he's like appealing to your ego... you'll be the savior, the hero kind of thing?

Guest: No.

Wayne: You're gonna have a great life with a beautiful wife and a million dollar home. Or was it really like a savior kind of thing?

Guest: No. I mean, I'm overstating it [Wayne: okay. ] I'm not trying to be literal here. I'm just trying to say he's showing you the best possible life you could possibly lead, the least painful way for you to experience life... pain-free. You get everything that you wanted and you come back.

Wayne: Did he tell you any percentages of this?

Guest: No percentages, but what I saw was there were branches that went off to either side. IF 'this' happens, THEN 'this' happens. and the IF and THEN and THEN and THEN and THEN and THEN and THEN and THEN, it looks like a pretty good --

Wayne: Or ELSE or ELSE or ELSE... if you don't do this --

Guest: Yeah, but I was looking at the THENs [Wayne: Right, right. I see. ] I'm gonna do the THENs and then everything's gonna work out GREAT.

Wayne: If you do THIS then you'll have a model as a wife and then maybe you ignore the ELSE part. like If you DON'T do that, you won't ever get to 'whatever' it is.

Guest: I don't know about the model thing. I'm just saying that those kind of values weren't... it wasn't from a selfish perspective. It was like you get to do [Wayne: He was just being matter of fact about it.. you do THIS...THEN, THIS... THEN ] Yeah, and THAT looks pretty good. And so if you get shown the BEST one that just goes straight, like no detours, it looks pretty awesome. It really does and you're thinking "I can do THAT", but you don't realize that there are trillions of variables and at least thousands of participants in YOUR life, I mean, if you just talk about human beings. I'm not talking about --

Wayne: And they all have to live up to THEIR contracts too.

Guest: Yeah. They're all doing their IF-THEN-ELSE statements also and so you're thinking that this is going to be a .. well, you hear people say that God has a plan for us.. yeah, but then God has a plan for you where things work out pretty good and then there are ones that are not so great and those ones where you get beat up a lot and you get run down and you get sick a lot and you get hurt a lot and dis-ease. Think about dis-ease. Whenever you're not going along with your plan you get dis-ease. You get uncomfortable and so you sit there and keep on going, doing the same thing even though it's making you sick. You're not paying attention to that plan and you forget. That's the problem. You forget the plan. You don't remember.

Wayne: And he wasn't necessarily coming at it from the standpoint that you need to learn these lessons so, yeah, it's probably better... I know this isn't the ideal life, but if you take this path then you'll be able to learn these lessons so it will be good... He was more appealing to your ego. If you do THIS, you'll have this wonderful life. Is that accurate?

Guest: No, no. Really when you come back you think you're going to save the world or whatever you're going to do. My thing is: I wanted to end war and I thought I was going to be able to do that. That was going to be the big thing I was going to do and, uh, I didn't. Here we are on the verge of going into World War III with Iran... again. And nobody even cares.

Wayne: So you think that everybody that comes here pretty much has to sign with the Demiurge all these agreements? [ Guest: Oh, yeah. ] Have you heard any other near death experiencers say that they've experienced this too? Or they just don't talk about it? Have you brought it up to anyone all? The just kind of change the subject? Do they just change the topic real quickly, or what?

Guest: It goes over like a cold stone. I think a lot of people who see the negative stuff like meeting the Demiurge, if you want to call him that. He's certainly not the Devil.

Wayne: Devil as in the personification of pure evil, right?

Guest: Yeah, right. Whatever HE is. He's just like us. He just knows.

Wayne: Do you think he's what most people think of as God?

Guest: Oh, absolutely. Literally.

Wayne: A lot of people think of him as God because he's sort of got control over this all. Would it be accurate to say he created it?

Guest: Yeah. Yeah. If he didn't, he took control after the first little --

Wayne: Ok, so why would God or the Light allow him to do this? I mean, is it part of the Game? Is it a bet? We all have free will and he says 'I wanna do this' and we all say 'Hey, that sounds like a good idea. We're coming too'?

Guest: You know, that's... I'm more speculating at this point, but I just think that there was no motion. What I saw is that -- especially when I saw the pillars in heaven -- I saw that you just adjust your perception of it a little bit and you can see the different stories popping out at you. And so I think that we're creating stories. I think that's what we do and I think they're interesting stories and I think that we're better for it. I really do. And the Demiurge is sitting there going, "Yay!" You know, yeah, he's right. "I'm right". Because we do... We go through... everybody says you got to experience Darkness before you can know the Light. And I don't know if that's true exactly, but here's what I DO know: that when we're over THERE we're insensitive to OUR pain here. We're insensitive to it because we don't feel it really. We can intellectualize it over there and I intellectualized it when I was shown the Plan, that I was going to get to do. I could intellectualize it. I think I can do better than Z plan. I can do A plan, but it was an intellectual exercise. I didn't realize I'd have to --

Wayne: You didn't at that point remember the last four or five reincarnations where you didn't get your A plan, but you got your Q.432 Plan, or something?

Guest: No. You know, I'm certain I had little blips. They call them deja vus and if you wanna know how this Demiurge is, as you call him, the world is NOT perfect. Just think of deja vu. People see little blips into the future. It's obviously not a perfect machine because sometimes you see stuff that doesn't even matter. You see meaningless conversation.

Wayne: And going back to what you were saying about the agreements and all... the IF-THEN-IF-THEN-ELSE kind of code. That's computer code so would you... one of the theories is that this might be sort of a computer simulation of some sort. Do you think it's possible that is some part of a computer algorithm or program, a simulation?

Guest: I know it's recorded that way, like a program. Imagine that Time first of all... most near death experiencers will say that there's no sense of Time, but what if it's all done and we're just seeing the perspective in our kaleidoscope by just adjusting our perception.

Wayne: So like this little chunk of code that's over here and another chunk [ Guest: Right. ] that's inaccessible at that point.

Guest: So imagine that we're all of us, you know, every molecule because, again, if I can go back to the hand. The hand is experiencing the world completely different than the neck is or the eye is, right? And so we're all little pieces of this big, huge thing and we're all perspectives. Yeah, if you want to call it a program. It's kind of simplistic, I think, but you got to understand the capacity of knowing everything from the very begriming of Time all the way to the end of Time. And if you already know that ahead of time and you're looking at it, you can look pretty smart.

Wayne: And if it's like some sort of movie or play, or some kind of drama that's being enacted or presented. I mean, you CAN store that on a DVD, plug it into your machine and watch it. I mean, at some point We WILL watch it later, right?

Guest: Absolutely. We get our life review... I got to see the Earth from the very beginning go through phases, go completely dark, and then at the very end it was completely brilliant Light. I'm talking about not just brighter. It wasn't bright like the Light is in heaven, but as bright as it can possibly get. We'll still have physical bodies, but they'll be PHYSICALLY lighter and they'll be brighter period... physically lighter, they'll be brighter period.. there'll be no sickness, death. no illness... people won't eat people or they won't eat animals or they won't kill anything. The plants -- I saw them -- and we will not kill a plant. There will be scientists that are there that literally -- if you eat the root, you won't eat the leaves. If you eat the leaves, you won't eat the root. Or you'll just eat the fruit of the plant. You know, it's so interesting how the world's going to be for thousands of years. And it's worth -- that's why we keep on playing -- because we think that we're going to get a chance at this. And that IS in one of those IF-THEN-ELSE statements. IF you do some growing up while you're here and you start doing some right things... I mean, by helping out instead of hurting... you might get to participate in this.

Wayne: And you clearly got the sense that he was genuine that he's going to hold his promise. If you do this, this WILL happen versus just kind of selling you a lie, keep telling you and keep putting you back into this recycling kind of thing and you never really... you know what I'm saying? You definitely got the feeling that he's sincere and truthful about that?

Guest: He's admitting he fails. [Wayne: Does he? ] He DID. And why would he do that except that he's saying, "look" [Wayne: He admitted that he failed in showing you how the game ends?] Right. He fails with his 2/3 Light strategy. It doesn't work. Eventually... [Wayne: Why is that?] Because the world gets out of control.

Wayne: People start refusing to come back and play the game?

Guest: Yeah. yeah.

Wayne: They're not reincarnating? Guest: They don't want to reincarnate or whatever you want to call it. They won't sign the contracts anymore. Whenever you're a chess player... I'm a chess player, okay... and if I'm playing against a computer and I know I'm going to lose and I'm behind a piece, I might as well quit.

Wayne: There IS a computer game out there, a chess game, and I think it's called Archons or something like that {Guest: uh-huh ] and I want to say it's created by a company called Demiurge. I swear, there's something very close to that. And then you got this computer company that makes sports games called EA -- "EA sports. IT's in the game" -- and so it's interesting that one of the... in the Sumerian culture their name for this, I guess the Demiurge, is Enki or Ea. I find that interesting that they actually have a chess game called Archons. "

[NOTE: EA Games partnered with a company named Demiurge to release Medal of Honor. EA also distributed a chess game called "Archon: The Light And The Dark".]

Guest: Well, this IS a chess game. And it's a very complex one. We're talking about whatever the most powerful chess game is nothing compared to... that's just one chess board, but imagine you have a chess board with trillions of players on it.

Wayne: A chess game is two sides and there's black squares and white squares, or whatever. There's two different colors of squares. {Guest: Yes. ] kind of similar to the Light and the Dark you were talking about.

Guest: You're right. And you know what's so interesting is there's 2/3 more Light, pure Lights... I'm not one. I'm gonna tell you right off the bat. Don't go thinking I'm claiming to be Jesus. I'm not. I'm not Buddha. I'm not Jesus. I'm not anything. I'm better than I WAS. I'm not who I was. Who I was was clearly somebody destined to destroy, kill, murder... racist, sexist, xenophobic.... I'm not THAT. I'm not one of those points of pure Light I saw and they're all over the Earth. And not everybody that's Light one day is gonna be Light the next day. They get influenced by the world around them and we have crystal clear moments in our lifetime that are brilliant and they show up on that... you know, I told you about the waves of Light. They're crystal clear moments of Light that we have.. sometimes that A-ha. And it ain't whenever you saved the world, it's whenever you did something pure, loving, kind, joyful, mercy, compassion, kindness. You cannot have compassion in the Light because there's nothing to have compassion for. There's nothing hurting. You cannot have mercy in the Light because there's nothing to show mercy for. It's perfect. Here there's a reason we allow so much hurt here so that we can get opportunities to either experience mercy or compassion or to show it. It's like our opportunity to do something that can't be done in the Light. And that's the pitch. If I'm gong to pitch for the Demiurge, that's what I'm going to pitch. SHOW me. You can tell me. Because up there are people sending souls here every single day and they have no concept of our pain and suffering. And they just keep doing it. They line up... get in line... get in line... they have no concept that they're going to sit there and drop into a body that's going to hurt other people. And you do, everybody. I don't care who you are. You're going to hurt somebody. If you walk through a field, you're going to step on a bug, you know what I mean? You're going to hurt somebody. If you have a baby, you're certainly going to hurt somebody because that woman is going to be hurt by that. If you're a woman, you're going to hurt that man. It's going to happen. It happens. We hurt each other. That's what we do. But if we can do anything in this world that makes it so we get towards that place where we're NOT hurting each other -- and I'm talking about in that beautiful world that I saw where it's pure Light... it's not pure Light, it's very very filled with Light -- it's: show mercy. Show kindness. Show compassion. If you can do those things. if you can do those things in THIS world it's like an entrance into THAT world. If you CAN'T do that here, you don't get to play in that other world. How do I get there? By showing compassion and mercy and kindness. If yo love everyone else in the whole world and you don't love that baby that's you... if you're cruel to yourself... if you're unkind to yourself, unmerciful to yourself... if you don't get THOSE things figured out in this life sometime you're probably going to line up and do it again. You know, if you sit there and abuse yourself, hurt yourself... I'm not even talking about the people that go out and hurt other people. I mean, it's easy to say "I'm not hurting people. I don't go out and run people over on the road. I don't back up over people. don't treat people poorly at work." But what if you have this little battle going on inside your own head and there's a part of our brain that stores those thoughts, that works on that actual aspect. It says things like "I hate you. I wanna die. You're stupid." There's this little bitty part of our brain. It's right on the other side that says "Don't put your finger in the fire." There's one side on one side that does something to make you not stick your finger in a fire, not to put your finger in an electrical socket, but on the opposite side of the brain -- they have a name for it -- and I should have looked it up, but I wanted you to be... I wanted you to hear it straight from my heart because I know it. I fought it for 20 years. I would help everybody else, give the shirt off my back, literally. Give, volunteer, did all kinds of things and those are good things. I'm not going to say they're not going to get into heaven because they WILL. They do. The good stuff you do DOES get into heaven. It gets into your life record. It's recorded forever and ever and ever. But am I going to get back into that line again?

Wayne: I was just thinking about how to end the game and I guess another way would be if we DO improve ourselves to where we can go to other playgrounds and stay there because we've done the work we need to do so then that LIGHT would leave this place and the 66% Light would drop down towards that 50% which in unstable, right? [Guest: Right ] If we all better ourselves and go somewhere else then this system would fail at that point. So it's not just a don't reincarnate kind of thing, you could reincarnate and actually graduate, right?

Guest: Well, we can participate in THIS world and others. And I'll tell you how THAT works out. I saw the VERY end. I'm talking about this Demiurge, or whatever you want to call it, the guy who does all the contracts. He records everything. He's like the Producer, okay, and he's producing this show. It's HIS show. And if you don't sign up for his contract, you don't enter.

Wayne: So he's like Simon Cowell Guest: I don't know who that is, but [Wayne: American Idol, America's Got Talent] I'm not a TV watcher so I don't know all that stuff. But, anyway, it's his game. People call him God for a reason because he can give you gifts. He's like Santa Claus for you, okay, gives you undeserved gifts, okay.

Wayne: Yeah, and it's interesting that the word 'archon' actually supposedly means 'ruler'. They're not our rulers. They like to think they are our rulers but the Demiurge is thought of as a God, but he's NOT God and these Archons want to be rulers, but they're not, technically, right, so I find that interesting.

Guest: I know a little bit about Archons and stuff like that, but I'm gonna tell you my perspective. Is that okay?

Wayne: Well, what I heard is that they're basically mind parasites. They can come in maybe like spirit attachments. I don't know either.

Guest: Well, let's talk about angels. Is it okay to talk about angels? [Wayne: Sure. Yeah. ] They're right there behind you. They're tugging at you. They mess with your electronics if you're not getting it right. They also keep you from... [Wayne: Are we talking about fallen angels? ] Well, what do YOU want to call them? [Wayne: I don't know. The Light gets through sometimes. Okay, you're driving down the road [Wayne: Are you talking about angels, like spiritual beings with wings or are they aliens, or what... I mean, I don't know...] You know what... if you want to call beings from a spaceship 'aliens' I don't know. [ Wayne: I mean, do you know what they look like? Or do yo just have a sense that they are angels? ] I've seen angels before. I've seen different kinds, but I'm just talking about the ones that I DON'T see, the ones that are looking over my shoulder, you know, the ones that whenever you're driving down the road and you look off to the right and you see this little glint over there and you change lanes and then there's an accident right in front of you that you missed. I mean, wouldn't you say that there's some influence there if you ignore that sign? We're given all kinds of little signals all through our life to help us to get down to that better life outcome. It's not all... well, we think we all have free will. We're given lots and lots and lots and lots of help to get things to go the way that we're supposed to go. I mean, sometimes we ignore them and break our necks. I've broken my neck 3 times. I've started listening. [Wayne: Wow, that's gotta be bad... to go through that.] You know, so I start listening, I pay attention. I do stuff that my intuition says to do because it might just save my life. But it might also be where I'm supposed to be. I'm supposed to be doing something. If I don't quit my job and move to Austin.... If I don't change my career. If I don't meet this certain person and have an interview... you see what I'm saying? You start listening to your intuitions and sometimes your intuitions are NOT RIGHT THOUGH because sometimes they're pulling DOWN... they're pulling DOWN and that's that... if you talk about that Demiurge, the guy with the brassy face, flaming eyes... he doesn't ALWAYS want you to do good because he doesn't want to mess it up the OTHER way, you see what I'm saying because it's GAME OVER for HIM. you see? It's GAME OVER for him either way. If the balance gets too bright, he loses. If the balance gets too dark, he loses. He has to keep it in that happy medium. So if you're really going to change the world, he's going to come against you.

Wayne: So it's perfectly balanced Is 50% sustainable?

Guest: No, it's 2/3... 66 and 2/3 is perfect for him [Wayne: But you were saying if it gets.. ] too low. If it gets below 50 percent, then who wants to play in a world where you don't know whether you're going to live or die today. You're going to wake up and get eaten by a lion. Can you imagine you go back to a prehistoric Earth, there aren't going to be too many humans around because they're going to be eaten. If you go back to... and who knows how many times the Earth has been wiped clean and I'm not going to say I saw that, but I saw something like that. But it wasn't like this big one that's going to happen, the BIG one.

Wayne: You were talking about this time where we don't kill other animals and harvest the... and we'll eat the roots and plants and fruits and all that stuff where there's no killing. And there's this glorious time on the planet where everything's Light, pure Light, not pure Light but just very Light... how do we get to that stage? I mean, do we go through something that's a turmoil period?

Guest: Yeah, it's going to be bad. It's going to be no light whatsoever. I'm not talking about... there's going to be no sunlight. There's not going to be any electricity. There's not going to be any electronic devices. There won't be ..

Wayne: Do you think it's in your lifetime... this lifetime... our lifetimes, or any idea.... could be years from now or any idea?

Guest: Time is not fixed. It's very flexible and fluid and I think anybody who says anything... if they say on this date something's going to happen... they may have gotten a little snapshot of something, but I don't think that they're getting the whole picture. They may have got a snapshot. That may or may not happen.

Wayne: You didn't see like a World War III or IV, whatever?

Guest: What I saw is a lot worse than any kind of war.

Wayne: Were any Presidents still alive involved in this, you know what I'm saying? So maybe you WOULD have the idea that it's in our lifetime but

Guest: You know what? That's... anything that I could say like that... why don't I just go to see the lottery numbers, you know? I saw everything, but I'm not allowed to remember it. And why... and here's what I wanna know: why would he let me remember this whole thing? It's because he wants us to know. Otherwise, he wouldn't have told us. He wouldn't have told me and I wouldn't be telling you if he didn't want me to. If it was like GAME OVER for him, he wouldn't want me to, you know what I'm saying? if it's going to pull things either way... if it's really going to make a difference, if it's really going to change the world in such a big way that it either pulls the whole world down into Chaos or it lifts it up out and it doesn't happen...because he doesn't want that.

Wayne: I was thinking about that because you're saying 2/3... we've got like maybe 7 billion people on the planet and I don't know where we're at in that equilibrium whether we're closer to 50% right now or 2/3, but the difference between, say, 66% and 50% is 16% -- one out of every 6 people -- so you're talking about over a billion people would have to, you know, change their tune, so to speak. [Guest: Yeah ] It's a lot. but it can't be done.

Guest: It CAN be done and it IS being done. There ARE people pulling uP and that's the reason why every time you see something really awesome and it seems like it's going to get off the ground, everybody's gong to get behind it and all of a sudden, water gets thrown all over.... they end up calling them 'crackpots' or whatever...'ridiculous'. Their intention was right. They were going along and then they get discredited, humiliated. The Media comes out and blasts them and then it just dies.

Wayne: I was just gonna say, yeah, the Media has so much power to try and control a lot of the masses thinking, but with the Internet and some pod casts and the freedom -- who knows how long we'll have it -- but there IS a window of opportunity there for us to reach out and get hold of some people -- alternative Media, basically.

Guest: Yeah, it's kind of like an aspirin though, you know what I mean by it being an aspirin -- alternative media, the Internet, things like that because it stops us from doing REAL things. I mean, I do it. I'm just as guilty as everybody else because I want to know more. I wanna know what's coming, but how we act is diminished sometimes by it. I'm not saying it CAN'T be a powerful force. It's good, but it can't ALL be done behind a microphone and it can't ALL be done on a web site. It has to be incorporated into our inside of us and THAT is like what creates the waves. I'm not saying a website can't, because it DOES. In fact, those vibrations? They go out and they go out across the entire universe.

Wayne: I guess what I'm thinking of is there is more and more people coming like I did to the realization that what we're being told by religious institutions or political parties that we're being fed a pack of lies, right? So if you're looking maybe... so now you're thinking maybe there's some evil entity that's behind it all but with some of these answers it kind of helps explain -- it gives you a REASON to want to do better with your life. It gives you hope I think a lot of people -- there's a growing, growing number of people with hopelessness like we're trapped and we can't get out -- but you've got some answers that I've never heard before.

Guest: Well, I mean to think that it's all good out there, that's just completely wrong. I hear lots of people sugarcoat their... or they have a near death experience whore they saw everything was good... everything was perfect. Man, that ain't what I saw. I saw where it WAS perfect and it ain't here. Man, I came back and oh, my gosh, I hated myself for what I believed.

Wayne: To be perfectly honest when I went to that meeting I thought "there's no way I'm going to find somebody who's even going to entertain what I'm have to say or these ideas. I was thinking the very first person I was going to talk to is going to say "Oh, the Light's wonderful!! You're crazy" You're like the very first person [that I talked to]... now granted you mentioned the psy-ops thing was why I came up and talked to you because I thought you could understand where I'm coming from [Guest: Right. ] maybe you've seen something else. I'm very surprised that I even found you, you know. You experienced THIS side of the coin, right?

Guest: [deep sigh] I beat myself up for 20 years where I literally just hated myself. Even though I would go out and do the things I thought were good -- helping people, being kind, compassionate, merciful -- I would just hate myself because I couldn't do enough, you know what I mean? I couldn't do enough, never could. I still can't. But at some point you gotta say, "I'm gonna get up and do something today that helps."

Wayne: You gotta have faith that in like the butterfly effect or networking like if YOU can change 10 people maybe THEY change 10 people and those 10 people -- all of a sudden you're talking about possibly millions or that billion that we might need.

Guest: That wave that I Was talking about. [Wayne: Yeah, the wave. ] My great sadness though is that I could do my VERY best and then they're going to send in the counters... you know, the pulling down. They'll pull down your family. They'll pull down whatever you're working on. If you're working on something that's REALLY cool, they'll try to drag you down in another area to keep you from REALLY accomplishing that absolutely transformational thing. And they'll drag you down and they'll hurt you and they'll hurt the people around you. And when they hurt the people around you that are not spiritually like there -- full blown, I've got my protections out. I know what's coming. I can hear the voice of the, the ... I can literally.. if I go and listen, for example, at church I don't even have to know their language and know what they're saying is either sounds like the Light or it sounds like the Demiurge. It either sounds like Love or it sounds like this 2/3 god that people call God. I know the difference and I'll walk right out of it. I remember walking out of churches covering my childrens' ears because I didn't want them to hear what they were saying because they were lying. They were SAYING they were God and then at some point I started figuring out that's.... their God is the Demiurge. Their God is THAT one, the 2/3 Light guy. He's not good. He's not evil. He's just mostly good. But let's do a fair deal. If you make a 66.66 on your Math paper, you just failed you know what I mean, if you just judge yourself on what college says or High school even. You failed. You didn't even get a 70 percent.

Wayne: Yeah, I don't know... back when I was in school 60 percent was barely passing. I don't know what the scale is now, but yeah, there's definitely some courses in college where if you don't hit 70 percent.

Guest: Well, making a D is not exactly a stellar life [Wayne: No.] and it ain't a stellar world. It AIN'T the world that I want to be in, but am I willing to come back for another one like this? No, I don't want to. And if I can plant it in my heart in a loving way that 'look, I've done a lot of cool stuff... I've done a lot of Love... I've done a lot of forgiveness, compassion, mercy, kindness... If I can go there and say, "Look, I KNOW that I could do MORE, but I'm ready to participate in that next one where the Light turns bright. And if I get told 'No' then [Wayne: I have a feeling your movie reel is going to be a little bit longer than 10 minutes the next time around ] Yeah, well, you know, afterwards I've committed myself to being a teacher. I've taught the blind, the deaf. I've taught thousands of children. I try to teach people through radio, through the Internet. And the only thing that I can say is I may not be that pure Light, whatever it is, but at least I try to express what I learned to the limits of my ability. I'm not saying I'm there all the time -- I'm NOT. I'm not Jehovah. I'm not Jesus. I'm not Muhammad. I'm not Buddha. I'm not Krishna. I'm none of that, but I try to... I know I'm dong better than I was. I was a psychopath, egomaniacal, racist, sexist, xenophobic hatemonger. I'm not THAT. So I'm doing better. I hoping that us talking about God being Love has changed the world. I think it has. I think there's a lot less people that are willing to hang on to their hateful God. If we can get rid of people wanting to hang onto that God that's willing to drag us down to teach us a lesson.

Wayne: It seems that God's been used as a tool to convince people that it's necessary to go to war -- Holy Wars -- they wave the flag and, like you're saying they say "God's on our side" and they just play off both sides against each other and they profit a lot from wars.

Guest: Well, the thing is that as many people that do good, there are some that actually are very powerful and they're not good. They're there to balance this out. [Wayne: So they have a purpose sorta. ] Yeah, they have a purpose. Not for the Light. The Light could do without them. That's the bargain.

Wayne: The Light wants to the Game to be over with so we can all go home, I guess.

Guest: Right, but God created this Darkness so that there could be motion, but the BEST thing is to be where it's a lot better balance.

I mean, there's still going to be children born in this new world. You're gonna still eat. It isn't going to be just like hanging around on clouds. There's going to be work to be done. There's going to be cleaning up the Earth, first of all. And then the next thing is there's going to be creating new systems that are going to help out in creating a new world. And then the next thing is, yeah, we're gonna get to have our fun. We're going to create musical instruments. We're gonna dance. We're gonna sing. There's no more crummy jobs. All jobs will be from a place of our joy where what is it we wanna learn in this lifetime. You know, if you wanna play sniper games, guess what? There's another world for that.

Wayne: We'll all get to be 30 years old and at the peak of our beauty too?

Guest: That's right. That's right. It's a LOT better. Imagine if you were to take all your DNA and come out with the best one. It's gonna be like that. Whatever the good qualities of you, the best version of you. And I think personally I saw somebody that looks a lot like me, a little bit younger version of me, picking up the Earth, removing PVC metal from buildings -- looked just like me. I'm not saying it was me -- not THIS me. I mean, I probably die in this one. You know, I didn't see it, but I probably die in this one. But I saw a me in a world that gets better, where all of the buildings get totally taken down to the ground and all the metal and PVC all gets taken off planet.

Wayne: You don't remember how exactly that happened. I mean, was it a revolution or war? Did you see the transition?

Guest: I saw the Darkness, then I saw the Light completely covering the Earth. The Light finally goes through unshielded. The Demiurge, as you called him, just completely gives up. He says, "I lose -- GAME OVER. You won. No more people are coming here anymore." But the remnant -- there will be a remnant -- the remnant will

Wayne: So we all won't just go back to Heaven at that point? [Guest: No.] GAME OVER. Earth over... GO back to Heaven. We'll actually have a beautiful...

Guest: Well, people will start coming back whenever the Earth gets wiped out. And, you know, there's all kinds of horrible, awful people who want to kill, most the planet. And they're trying to bring this on. And all I can tell you is that their intentions even though they have two intentions. Their one intention is because the Earth needs to have the population reduced. But the other intention is nefarious -- killing people is not good but they have this dual, bipolar mentality that makes them think that what they're doing is good when in fact it is the polar opposite. If you're poisoning children so that there won't be as much children on the Earth, shame on you. I'm sorry, there's gotta be a better way to do it than poisoning them and killing them.

Wayne: Do you recall.... what comes to mind Prince Charles say he'd like to come back as a virus, to be reincarnated as virus. That's crazy.

Guest: Well, it's gonna happen with or without Prince Charles, okay. I saw it happen and I believe it will.

Wayne: We don't die though... we live.. there's no death, right?

Guest: From my perception of it is that we just are done. In other words, it's kind of like if you read the Jesus story, he just goes up into Heaven, right? But in this lighter version of us we'll have options to go back. In other words, your turn's over: let someone else go do it, but it's not like dying with a horrible... your heart quitting or your brain locking up or getting an aneurysm or a stroke. It won't be like that. It'll be: "Okay! Go home."

Wayne: This goes on for thousands of years?

Guest: Well, the way I saw it was not linear, but I did see it was a good, long period of time. It wasn't like a few weeks or months. It was thousands of years, yes. And it goes on for a good amount. But then at the very end...

Wayne: We're still learning lessons [Guest: Yeah, we're learning how to be a.. ] There isn't greed.

Guest: Nah. Well, first of all there's not going to be any... there WILL be, okay, but it will be real hard to get there because you won't have any mental health issues. You won't have chemical problems. You won't have addictions. Without chemical problems, addictions, dis-ease... if you don't have dis-ease. No reason to make money because you're not going to go hungry. The place I saw the weather's even temperatures...temperate is what they call it. Imagine Southern California without any bad days, no smog, but all over the world.

Wayne: This is the Plan A that we've been sold all along, right?

Guest: Right. And so we won't have any reason to have windows because there won't be any pollution to blow through there. I mean, you could work up some jealousy but it will be hard to do. You could say I'm jealous of this person... well, after they're done with the person they're with after 100 years, maybe y'all can hook up or whatever. But there's not going to be any sickness or mental health problems that cause it. If you get jealous, they're just gonna take you out. You're done and it's gonna be more transparent... the thoughts, it's kind of like in Heaven.

Wayne: You think at this point it IS telepathic?

Guest: Kind of like that, but it isn't completely telepathic in that if you don't want somebody to read your thoughts, they're not gonna read them. [Wayne: So you do have a firewall, some kind of privacy of thought. But if you commit a crime, they'll know, right? But what if you don't want them to know that thought? ] There's going to be those who DO, okay. [Wayne: so you pick up on the little nuance ] Right, And you get taken out, you know what I mean... but if you mess up during THAT time.... You've really... [Wayne: You NEED to be taken out. ] You NEED to be taken out. C'mon, you're not gonna die [Wayne: IT's a very, very small ] Yeah, yeah. I mean, most people.. first of all, you have to have proven yourself to get there. I've worked on these things I've been working on. Or I did it once and did it right, but the point is you're going to have proven yourself. And then you'll get to remember, you know what I mean? It won't be like THIS time where we forget everything each time we come. You'll remember your lessons.

Wayne: Yeah, that's one of the problems I have with... that's THE biggest problem I have with the reincarnational system is how can you grow and learn if you don't remember what you're being rewarded or punished for? You don't remember your past life, right? Now maybe in the spirit world you've got lessons and classes... but while we're HERE we don't remember.

Guest: Well, it's kind of spiritual muscle memory. I think that we gain some, but then depending upon what we do, right out of the box we start crying for our mom's tit and then we get jealous whenever she doesn't give it to us and so right off the bat we're already creating that separation. And then the mom gets tired of the child's crying and puts them out of the room, closes the door. There's so much that we think we can work our way through, but we're not living inside of that little baby. Honestly, I think it's too hard. It disgusts me, the wars that we're in. I know that my own country is bombing women, children that didn't mean us harm. In fact, they like us, some of them, that we're killing. Wow, you're just bombing somebody that was waiting for you to save them, and yet you're bombing them. How's that good?

Wayne: And if you would have been born on that side of the world, you could have been them.

Guest: Right. Here I was in that life I Was the German pilot killing the Americans and in the next life I'm the American and I'm responsible for helping to plan the wars that we're in today. And that's discouraging.

Wayne: I know you're about ready to get to my favorite part of the story, probably yours too. You were about ready to tell me the end [Guest: yeah. ] It's a pretty amazing part.

Guest: There's the millennial plant, okay. It's a beautiful plant that after... think of a plant that's the Earth. After the millennia of the Earth that it's gone through, and I DID see this -- the Demiurge showed me. He said, "Look, I failed." He's showing me his failure. [Wayne: That's interesting that he already knows he failed] He showed me his failure. "I failed. The world became completely dark. People are running around in Chaos. There's a remnant of people who are being loving and kind anyway, who are laughing and joyful, anyway. There are these little points of Light in absolute Darkness. There's no electricity, but people will give off their Light, okay. So you think that's like I saw in Heaven. I saw orbs of Light, but that's going to happen on Earth. But then imagine that the Earth becomes completely filled with Light. And people are like that. They're like those little orbs and the Earth has completely done its course. Everyone has learned their lessons. They're finished. They figured out how to be the best musician, the best singer, the best piano maker, the best whatever-they-wanna-do, and they're finished. They've found their true love. [Wayne: We get enhanced DNA for this to occur... just dedicated hundreds of years of honing your craft or whatever] You DO hone your craft. However, you DO get a much better version of your DNA, because you're physically lighter and spiritually lighter so you're going to... you don't get a download of how to do it, but you DO have the natural ability to learn faster. But you become the master.

Wayne: You don't have to go to work for 40, 50, 60 hours a week.

Guest: Right. You don't have to just sit there and push paper work for 8 to 10 hours a day just so you can go home and sing for 30 min tues and then fall asleep in your pillow. But you get to work on whatever it is you wanna work on. If you're an artist, you work on that art, whatever that art is. And I think it's going to be a beautiful moment in Time.

Wayne: So what happens with these orbs of Light that you saw?

Guest: Okay, at the very end I saw the Earth go through all these phases and it goes through this brilliant Light phase. Light goes into the -- oh yeah, I wanted to mention this. Those ones that are going to try to hide out inside the Earth... man, that ain't happenin'... the Light's going inside the Earth. That's where they're going to be hiding... you know, those dark souls that are trying to manipulate and control the Earth. They're going to be hiding underground and they're thinking they're getting away.

Wayne: So there's no way to avoid this -- no safe spot ?

Guest: Nah, well it WILL. It will save them for a little bit longer. I mean, they'll be the last ones to get caught. But it might save them for a day or two, maybe a month, who knows, maybe two, maybe a year.

Wayne: You said we're going to go through a really dark period of time... should people like hoard all your food and stockpile weapons, or would you share with other people?

Guest: Whenever that time of Darkness comes, first of all, if you have food and you stored it, great, fantastic. If people are beating your door down wanting to kill you for it, by golly, you got to make a decision at that time. That's decision time, isn't it? And when you kill that person that's trying to get your food... ah, oh boy. What happens? Do you get to participate in the Light that's right on the other side of that? You know, or do you kill that person and... oops, you were shoved into a position where the whole universe is going to be watching during that time of Darkness. How are you going to act? And, for me, I'm willing to starve to death. I don't want to kill anybody.

Wayne: So it's a really critical juncture then?

Guest: It really is. I saw people fleeing around in Chaos. And I saw these certain core people of people that will be walking together, singing... they'll be joyful, they'll be laughing. There is nothing to laugh about . I mean, the world is in literal Chaos, but THEY'RE going to be the points of Light. If you see them, join them. And if you DON'T see them, become one so that others will join YOU. You know, I'm not going to kill anybody for a can of tuna. I'm not gonna to do it. If I can hide it, I'm going to hide it., okay? So that I can feed my family.

Wayne: What kind of scenario... Are we talking Mad Max scenario?

Guest: Yeah, it'll be worse than Mad Max [Wayne: cannibalism..] Yeah, it will be total anarchy, total breakdown of civilization. People are going to running, fleeing, scared, frightened. And they're going to be doing things they ought not do, and especially to their fellow human being. The whole world's going to be in Chaos and what we do during that time is we can be humane or we can be inhumane, that's it. You got two choices. If you're humane, that doesn't mean you let people kill you. I'm not saying not to wrestle off the boogie man. I'm just saying you have to make that decision.

Wayne: Do you think at this point certain people will be protected by angels? Do you think there'll be a protection for certain people?

Guest: I think that we've got to be points of Light. I think that's our protection. I think that if you're in Costa Rica and you got enemies on every side and they don't attack you, why don't they attack you? Because you're the one person who isn't going to stab you in the back. I think you just got to be a point of Light and I know that there are lots of people storing up food and ammo and guns and preparing to kill all the hordes of hungry people. I mean, if there's 7 billion hungry people out there and you got the only can of tuna, I got a feeling you're going to lose that deal.

Wayne: The Demiurge saying he's lost and he's already lost, but if he's this master chess player doesn't he see check mate? Why wouldn't he give up NOW? Why would we have to go through all that terrible, terrible time period... ?? when it's all over does it make it more beautiful after we went through all that? Guest: I think he's just admitting he failed and I think that people give into their lower impulses. Whenever it becomes dark we become frightened, fearful and lash out.

Wayne: At that point he DOES quit and that's when the Light comes?

Guest: After a certain period... some people say it's 3 days. Some people say it's 7 years. I don't know. I saw it as very brief. I'd LIKE to think it was 3 days, but, to hedge my bets I'd probably try to at least save 3 days worth of food. But even better, I think everybody ought to save a certain amount of food and water just so you don't have to go out and kill somebody else for their food... I mean, nothing wrong with that [saving food], but as far as storing up a bunch of guns and ammo so you can kill people, that ain't happenin' for me.

Wayne: What about at that point is it better to try and survive or do you think there's a real purpose for us to make it though to the other side so we can rebuild. Should we 'fight' through that period?

[NOTE: By 'fight', I meant 'gut it out and survive'. I don't even kill bugs. In fact, I don't believe in killing living animals and plants for food so I only eat fruit, nuts, bean, eggs, pasta, dairy, protein bars/drinks, etc.]

Guest: I'm not going to. I'm not saying there isn't. Some people that's what they're believing in. They're saving up their.. instead of buying diapers for their kids they're buying another bullet. Instead of buying shoes for their children, they're buying another gun.

Wayne: Somebody's going to have to rebuild after this is all over. Will we be able to reincarnate in again and be one of those vessels?

Guest: I think you gotta be Costa Rica... be that person... you as a person, be that person. And if you die, so be it. Maybe you get to come back. If you don't die, then maybe everybody will leave you alone because they think you're safe and as long as they got you at their back, they don't have someone else at their back. That's what I say.

Wayne: So what happens at the very end?

Guest: Oh, wow. You know, this is probably the longest interview I've ever gone through [Wayne: 3 hours ] but I think it's important to say what happens at the very end.

At the very end the whole Earth explodes and there's nothing that takes its place -- the camera stays there until the end of Time. So everybody who thinks the new world is right here. It ain't. The world that we're creating is the world that we're going to have and the one that we rebuild is going to be the one we have. so we ought to be trying to save it instead of hurting it. And there IS an end though. Whenever the world ends, there's a last day for this Earth and internally it just blows up. And the souls -- those orbs of Light I talked about, the ones that were Costa Rica, the ones that were brilliant, singing, joyful -- they go out, splinter out all over the universe and they're like star seeds. They seed the galaxies and the Universe with human beings who actually survived up to that point. They're complete souls. They're filled full of Light and they lived outstanding lives. The World blows up though and the thing is: People think that it's never going to end. Time ends... and it DOES end. And when it DOES end we're going to get to see our stories -- and our stories are important. And I think we ought to create a Love Story, that's what I think. Now that story that I told you, it sounded like War and Peace, but -- it was three hours long -- but I think that it needed to be told and I don't know if it gets told in one setting . But I did what I could for 3 hours. I saw a lot more than THAT.

Wayne: That's a BEAUTIFUL ending. That's like worthy of an Oscar. You talk about motion pictures. When we watch this back it's going to be... people are really going to be cheering for that. Anything else you wanna add? I guess we can start wrapping up.

Guest: Nope. Thank you very much for interviewing me. Thank you for letting me explore this OTHER side of the story that most people don't want to hear.

Wayne: Thank you.

Wayne: Wow, so there you go, folks. It's a pretty amazing experience that he's just related to us. I don't know, what do you think? He's agreed to do a follow up interview so... I didn't really get a chance to get to maybe SOME questions at the end because it had already taken 3 hours. But if you have any questions that you want me to ask him next time please send them to me [ waynejbush@gmail.com ] and let me know what you thought -- good or bad, indifferent, whatever. So thank you for listening and have a good one.